Where's your God now, Republicans?

Okay I'm cool with the idea that you won the election based on the fact Gays are against your biblical preachings. You came out in numbers to vote your President George W. Bush into office. God told you to do it, right? I mean "For God so loved his people, he chose you to fight for your country and your homophobia." But, I have to ask where is your God now?

Where did he go? Are the soldiers in Iraq coming back in body bags less important then Rosie O'Donnell adopting kids? Is the Kayusha missiles hitting innocent families in Israel, of less consequence then BrokeBack Mountain? Did I miss something when I went to see the Davinci code and thought why are people protesting this movie, but not the genocide occurring in Dafur?

Where is your God now Republicans? Is he in your purse or wallet where your gas money once was? Is he in Louisiana rebuilding your home after Katrina? Is he standing beside Fred Phelps while he protests the Baptists at the Greensboro Coliseum?

No God doesn't care about gay people. God doesn't care if we destroy ourselves from the inside out. It's the religious differences of this world that will lead us to our destruction, and perhaps when we start caring for one another rather then our petty differences, then God will care about us.

God is good all the time. All the time God is good.

We created our own problems. Why blame God?

I believe that the democrats have the same God as Republicans. In fact I would bet that God is neither Republican or Democrat.

Jovick wrote: God is good all the time. All the time God is good.

ha ha.. Re-read your bible and get back to me. Pay close attention to the old testament.

Jovick wrote: We created our own problems.

I agree completely... we created god.

I know, I know, Jovick set me up for that one.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do" -Mark Twain

Yup. I've studied my bible (old and new) just fine. God is good all the time. He is also just, righteous, and holy. The next time you lift up the bible try studying the bible instead of just reading it. Its a world of difference.

We did not create God. However, I suspect you may have created your OWN God though.

Was God good, when he flooded the earth as he threw a temper-tantrum flooding village folk, killing everyone?

God is just and righteous. He brought you in to this world and he can take you out. There was none righteous at that time other than Noah and his family.

You may not like some of things that God does but that doesn't make him bad. Way too many people get caught up in the fact that God is love. Well I have news for you... he is also just, righteous, and holy and you do not want to be part of God's wrath.

I know what your next question will be.

"What did the little children and babies do to deserve this?"

I look at it like this. People who have not reached the age of accountability do not have to fear death because they will be in heaven. God actually did them a favor by not letting them grow up in a world where they had ZERO chance of salvation.

Jovick wrote:
I look at it like this. People who have not reached the age of accountability do not have to fear death because they will be in heaven. God actually did them a favor by not letting them grow up in a world where they had ZERO chance of salvation.

Sarcasm on..

So by that rationale abortion is the greatest thing you could do for a child.. RIGHT ON JOVICK!

Sarcasm off.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do" -Mark Twain

wait... if God wasn't wrong when he did the Noah massacre thing, why did he promise to never do it again?

Didn't he basically admit he lost his temper, and kinda took it out on us?

I mean by your speculation, he should certainly re-neg on the whole rainbow, I won't flood thing, and just flood the whole damn thing again, right.

Or can God make mistakes? Hmmm....

Jovick, I will give you this... you are one person who doesn't sway in their faith. But how did you go about determining your perception of religion. Is it personal interpretation, or how your church bases it's view, or is it how your family brought you up? Even in my own church, religion on various topics was up for debate. Obviously you have faith that your version is correct, but how can you be 100% certain of it, since its only your interpretation? Yes I know the bible says so, but again that's what you read from your bible. Do you not, ever question then what your brain is determining your faith maybe a in conflict with the failable human mind, and not the absolute truth. Is that not saying, you know exactly what God intended. Isn't that saying your better then everyone else because you seem to be able to perfectly interpret Gods word, even when it arguably vague?

Jovick wrote: The next time you lift up the bible try studying the bible instead of just reading it. Its a world of difference.

We did not create God. However, I suspect you may have created your OWN God though.

I am curious as to what you mean by 'studying' the bible. I'm taking that to mean 'interpreting' because if you read it as it was written, Beth is right on the money about most of this. God indeed does do an about face. He kills everyone, then more or less says 'my bad' and promises never to do it again because man was 'evil by nature' or something. Which throws another monkey wrench into the whole "god's perfection" issue with the imperfectly designed humans "he created". Not to mention the fact that the flood was designed to clear the world of a mistake..which made no sense really when he had saved a handful of these creations (who were by the rules of its own dogma prone to the same evils) to continue the lineage..

I mean, lets be honest here. If god was so damn smart, wouldn't he have just wiped the slate and started over with another creation? The bible is completely Illogical when it comes to its own ideas and stories like this.

Back to the other point.. we create our own gods. Even within a religion, a god can mean different things to different people. Even different 'experiences'.

It's like when you read a book and imagine what the main character looks like. 40 different people will have 40 different interpretations. Its only after you see them cast Keanu Reeves in the main roll for the movie version that you realize how wrong you were and how much you hate Keanu's interpretation of the role (ha ha), which is in fact a mix of the director's and actor's vision of the same character.

A good example is the 'classic' Jesus character. What we see in many of the popular pictures goes against the reality of what he 'would' or 'might' have looked like at the time, yet even with that somewhat shared image, all the followers of that particular myth have their own unique vision of him.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do" -Mark Twain

God and His commandments are not interpreted different ways to different people. They are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

"Religions" may change from time to time, but Christianity is about having a relationship with God that never changes. God does not say it's ok to have an affair in the Old Testament and then it's bad to have an affair in the New Testament. The prophet Amos and Jesus talked about how "religious" the Israelites were and how God would judge them for violating His commandments. God doesn't waiver in His commandments.

In the same vein, God established a covenant with His people and that will also never change. We can rejoice in the idea that God disciplines and chastens His children, but will also love and bless and guide them. I feel the Holy Spirit in me and am confident that God speaks to me and directs me. I can lean on Him and not on my own understanding. I can cast my cares on Him because He cares for me.

Please know that you can have this confidence, also. Please attend a church that teaches from the Bible and has a pastoral staff that relies on God and the Bible to direct their actions. I will be praying for you..

Dave wrote: God and His commandments are not interpreted different ways to different people. They are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

"Religions" may change from time to time, but Christianity is about having a relationship with God that never changes. God does not say it's ok to have an affair in the Old Testament and then it's bad to have an affair in the New Testament. The prophet Amos and Jesus talked about how "religious" the Israelites were and how God would judge them for violating His commandments. God doesn't waiver in His commandments.

In the same vein, God established a covenant with His people and that will also never change. We can rejoice in the idea that God disciplines and chastens His children, but will also love and bless and guide them. I feel the Holy Spirit in me and am confident that God speaks to me and directs me. I can lean on Him and not on my own understanding. I can cast my cares on Him because He cares for me.

Please know that you can have this confidence, also. Please attend a church that teaches from the Bible and has a pastoral staff that relies on God and the Bible to direct their actions. I will be praying for you..

Nice post Dave. I am not as eloquent as you but you do speak truth.

This is going a bit downhill so this is the last comment I'll have on this subject. I believe what I believe and you beleive what you believe. If you earnestly have a serious question then I'll try and answer it the best I can but I can't sit in a conversation where you are constantly bashing and blaspheming God.

Jovick wrote: This is going a bit downhill so this is the last comment I'll have on this subject. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. If you earnestly have a serious question then I'll try and answer it the best I can but I can't sit in a conversation where you are constantly bashing and blaspheming God.

Jovick, I was about to say how much respect I was having for you before you made this statement. There is no blasphemy going on here, just an open discussion. You make it sound like we're in Rome and I just called the emperor Egyptian or something.

This is another blanket exit statement, I swear they give the same line to all the Christians when the discussion gets too tough to answer. These are serious questions, you just don't want to answer. Your too scared to possibly find whats on the other-side. This is my problem with religion. If you we're allowed to ask questions, and really explore them, and you reached some kind of intelligent answer, then hey that would make sense. But when your not allowed to ask questions, your a blind follower incapable of seeing where the path you follow leads.

Until you can accept for a moment the possibility God doesn't exist, then you'll never truly believe he does, because you'll never have an answer to all these questions you call blasphemy.

Jovick wrote: This is going a bit downhill so this is the last comment I'll have on this subject. I believe what I believe and you beleive what you believe. If you earnestly have a serious question then I'll try and answer it the best I can but I can't sit in a conversation where you are constantly bashing and blaspheming God.

Actually that's what I like about you, Jovick. Why you may not try and see things from the P.O.V. someone like me does, you actually give answers to your own beliefs and do a good job of backing them up most of the time. I'll take that over a sermon any day.

As far as 'blasphemy', its impossible (for the person who questions these things) to talk about the abstract concept of god and not appear 'blasphemous' in the eyes of the person to which the abstract is real. This is one of the dangers of religion.

Once you define yourself as jewish, christian, muslim, hindu, etc, you sign up to all the trappings of what is considered blasphemous and what isnt. Thus there are truths you can never allow yourself to know for you are too afraid that questioning these things will be crossing that line. Not to mention you also assign youself to a prejudice of other people.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do" -Mark Twain

Wow. You obviously have thought about this a lot. I would like to suggest you find a Christian who could answer these questions in a one/one relationship so you can have a prayer partner and someone to pray for you specifically. This forum lends itself to extremist thinking that is not conducive to explaining how faith in God can move mountains. I agree with Jovick in that we can go back/forth ad nauseum with these responses, so I'll end with this comment. God did not create a flawed Eden--it became flawed when Adam and Eve decided to rebel against God. It was God's intention for people to have a loving relationship with Him (agape love).

Why was Moses chosen to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt for 40 years into the promised land but was not allowed to enter? Ask Gideon how he defeated 30,000 Amalekites with only 300 men. How could David be the one chosen by God to lead a nation and still commit adultery and murder? Ask Paul how he changed from being the worst persecuter of Christians to the biggest apologist for Christ on the road to Damascus. These are questions that show God establishes a covenant with His people and when they disobey Him, they receive their punishment. But when they keep His commandments, He blesses richly and abundantly. You can be blessed beyond belief when you are in God's will. Job honored God and received much more than he had before he was tested by Satan. It's awesome to life a life for God with the knowledge that you can live in glory after you die. The problems of this world don't compare to the glory that awaits us in Heaven.

[quote="beth"]

If there is a God he certainly doesn't want us to worship him. He just wants up to be good to one another and stop destroying one another.

Trust us, there is a God. He says that the two greatest commandments are to love God with all your soul and your heart and all your might and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. But more than that, God wants a relationship with you so you can live with Him in glory. This relationship with God includes love, direction, correction, blessings and life more abundantly.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss this with you. I also thank Jovick for opening this dialogue with tremendous insight and compassion. Again, please contact a friend or pastor of a church who can partner with you and teach about this in more detail and answer your questions that are obviously troubling you.

Ok.. maybe I did overreact a little bit. You need to understand, to me, when it appears you are attacking God and saying things that I know aren't true I get incensed a bit sort of like you might if somebody was verbally attacking your little child. Hey... I'm human. When I feel the conversation is swaying from being a productive conversation I have to stop and analize if I'm being counter-productive of my goals.

There really was a time that I pondered whether there really was a God. Quite honestly it might be much easier to live in this world if I didn't believe in God. Nobody in their right mind would choose to be a Christian just because it might be the cool or fad thing to do. Being a Christian is extremely hard to do and we get made fun of quite a bit and are discriminated against. Yet... I choose to be a Christian because I know the truth. I'm still learning truth as well. I'm way farther from Jesus than I want to be but I'm trying.

With all that being said... what is your biggest roadblock to believing in Jesus our Christ and Savior? I'll try and answer with the knowledge I have. Unfortunately, most unbelievers think that Christians should know the answer to all their questions (as if their is a magic knowledge pill one takes when they become a Christian). If I don't know I'll do my best to find out for you a good answer and maybe we'll all learn something.

"Being a Christian is extremely hard to do and we get made fun of quite a bit and are discriminated against."

Try being an atheist if you want to find out how tolerant people really are.

Jovick wrote: When I feel the conversation is swaying from being a productive conversation I have to stop and analyze if I'm being counter-productive of my goals.

I can't speak for everyone who will come to this board, but I for one am about as open minded to religion as possible. All I ask, as a skeptic, is prove it to me. This isn't an atheist forum, or a non-religious forum. It's just a place to discuss. The people that come here are religious, and atheists, agnostic, etc. Hopefully one day will have some Wiccans, and pagans, and Muslims to boot.

I don't honestly care whatcha are. You could be a gay black woman cannibal for all I care. I respect you, and your religion, but bottom line is... If I can do that, being a skeptical ex-christian turned non-believer shouldn't people of faith be just as accepting of the creations of their God. In other words, if there is one gripe that turns me off about religion, it's hate.

Hate for gays.
Hate for women.
Hate for people of other faiths.
Hate for fill in the blanks.

I know you won't call it hate, you'll call it love "without being saved." But how is a person who is told they can never get into heaven because of who they are or how they live, without changing and repenting ever supposed to accept your God as theirs?

I'm not necessarily saying this is the case without all versions of Christianity, and it may not pertain to yours. But a good amount of Christianity does disagree with certain lifestyles.

When you see things, as I have, and see people basically put on witch trials because someones interpretation of their religion, that's when I got upset.