The superstition of Religion

[peterm1]

Can anyone really change those who choose to believe this stuff. Judging by some of the responses, I do not think so. I would call myself agnostic, not atheist and certainly not christian. I am in the middle - a thinking man, grappling with the questions of life, the universe and everything.

Do I believe all of the stuff in the bible? No - That stuff was written thousands of years ago by a bunch of illiterate people who thought the earth was flat, (and was the centre of the universe - assuming they thought about it at all) that keeping slaves was fine, that slaughtering someone for a trivial offense (like heresy; ie thinking !!!!!!) was de rigeur and that women were inferior to men. They also believed a whole bunch of other stuff that we would find repulsive, ignorant (or illegal) today.

From what I understand they also had precious little comprehension of things like hygiene, cleanliness and health, often suffering from disgusting(and preventable diseases) that do not even appear in today's world except as an entry in Google and perhaps in the poorest of poor countries amongst the most simple of people who know no better.

They had no Einstein, no Heisenberg. They had no cosmology. They had nothing that we would call science. What they had was superstition. So it is no wonder that all of this silly superstition infected their world view and understanding of creation.



If you ran into one of these folk from the earlier era on the street today, you would most likely run to the other side of the street to avoid them, not wistfully gaze into their eyes while they handed you their philosophy of life and creation. If they stopped you in the street and tried to preach their understanding of life, believe me you would call the police and have them carted off as deranged .BUT THERE ARE "PEOPLE OF FAITH" WHO BELIEVE THE SAME SILLY AND DANGEROUS STUFF TODAY - citing the stuff in the bible as authority.

This is a backward belief system. Can I believe that silly dogma. Not on your life!

Do I struggle with questions of faith, where the universe came from, what is good and evil - sure do! In my own way.

One of the posts accused the author of not respecting other peoples faith. since when do these silly people have respect for my faith. I am wrong, they are right QED. That is all that is to be said for it and my wrongness disqualifies me, in most of their eyes from further serious consideration.

But I do it in my own way.

So if you struggle with this stuff too. Stop and think for a moment. And have a listen to this post - a talk by Sam Harris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM

and this one by Richard Dawkins (in 3 parts) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2vmj8e ... ed&search=

[Liv]

There is a distinction between morals and ethic, and the laws of the bible. Atheism is not anti-religion. Many Atheists share much of the same moral code that Religion and scriptures endorse, without assuming all of the bible factual. This is not a blanket statement including all religious people, nor atheists / agnostics, but IMHO, I consider myself much more of a moral and ethical person then many of those who claimed to be Christians.

[Jovick]

Answer me this then... I really want to know how an athiest or agnostic can define what is ethical or what is moral?

[Guest]

Are you really saying that because I am agnostic I am evil.......It sounds horribly close to it. Which rather proves my point about (sadly) many "people of faith." Which is that they give up, thereby, being "people of reason."

I know many, many agnotic and atheistic people who are exceedingly good people who lead a deeply moral life and in fact who I would judge to be a damn side better than most devout practitioners of the christian, jewish or moslem faiths that I have met...........why, because they tend not to be judgmental about others, and their moral code is based on not harming others or themselves (or the world for that matter.)

You might say they are humanists. They embrace the world in all its hard and difficult complexity and try to make sense out of it , not by easy reference to the simple answers that come from creation myths and dogma but by reference to their understanding of what is it fundamentally means to be a good person and to do right in this world.

Since many religions tend to ignore good deeds by unbelievers and instead say ---if you do not believe in me, then you are evil, well you can see the problem , cant you???? Or perhaps you cannot.

And by the way you can chose if you wish, to believe that the universe was created "at nightfall preceding 23 October, 4004 BC" as calculated by Biship Usher on biblical authority and that adam and eve were the first humans, but I prefer to believe the logic of science based on evidence studied over a hundred and fifty years (counting since darwin) by christian, jewish and moslem scholars.

There are many many moderate christians and jews whom I know who do embrace both their faith and this scientific reality and who are none the worse for it.

As for me I am just a poor soul trying to make sense of the universe, using my god given (you would call it that) intellect and a desire to find my own way without falling back on the simple answers handed down by people who frankly knew no better.

[Liv]

Answer me this then... I really want to know how an atheist or agnostic can define what is ethical or what is moral?

By what actions, they would like to be treated as, if the roles are reversed. Or to put it lightly, the golden rule.

I wouldn't like you stealing from me, so I won't steal.
I wouldn't like you murdering me, so I won't murder.
If I was hungry, I'd hope you'd feed me.
If I was poor, I'd hope you'd clothe me.
If I was gay, I'd hope you treat me with equality.
If I worshiped another religion, I'd hope you respected me.

It's really not all that hard. In fact, have you ever suspected the Bible may be a book of fairy tales that describe human's basic intuition of doing good and evil. That God, could be the personification or metaphor for our own internal capability to sense good from bad?

[Sanjuro]

What I'm saying is that if you are atheistic or agnostic then you can't easily define evil. If you say that you know evil when you see it then you must admit that evil is felt rather than just recognized and you are using emotion rather than reason to define it. Define evil without using emotion.

You can't define it without using emotional context because it's a human created term used to qualify something. The caveat is there needs to be malice involved. For there to be malice involved you need a conscious act. For instance one cannot say that the hurricane Katrina was "Evil" or the damage done was 'evil'. But based on our society's law and a person's own moral code, one could say It was 'evil' for people to rape and kill in the aftermath.

A law exists in a society to keep things running smoothly and (hopefully) protect its people and their rights. A law can fall in line with an accepted moral or protect its virtues. Having a 'moral' is a code that people live under. Often its passed down from family but more often a society. It helps govern their lives and exists within the boundaries and laws of the society. It does not take a god, religion or dogma to create morals, although many try to make that connection. After all if this were the case, people would be killed for working on Sunday and children would be stoned to death daily. After all, this is in the bible. Since you like quoting scripture, I thought I'd take a shot. By your own words.. this would be a great idea...

He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

However, what you may be referring to is ones own conscience. How one determines if throwing the proverbial stone at the window is right or wrong. If you are thinking of doing something wrong, your conscience will let you know it. If you still do it, and it goes against the laws of a society, you will be punished. For most of us, we don't need to think about the aftermath of a negative act, we simply know it isn't right and don't do it.

That doesn't come from a "religion" or "devine influence", it comes a from an advanced form of altruism. A protection mechanism. Sometimes I wonder if that isn't also the cause of the apparent 'need' for a 'god'. But that's a different discussion for another time.

I strongly agree with you. I know many professing Christians that do not represent Christianity and the love of Jesus very well.

Help me understand that statement. Please explain when you met Jesus and moreover, if you have any videotape. It would be very useful in your case. Right now, all I am seeing is your own interpretation of the dogma. See below...

A Christian is a follower of Christ - not somebody who is "saved" or says they attend this or that church. Christians exist in many different churches and you can't define a Christian by what building they are in on Sunday morning. Also... remember..Christians make many mistakes. Many mistakes. Don't put your eye's on Christians... put your eyes upon Jesus Christ.

Mistakes? Oh yeah. Like (mistake #1) not being able to accept personal responsibility for their actions (devil made me do it, better ask for forgiveness) and (mistake #2) latching on to fairy tales because they are either too afraid that there is nothing after this life and cant handle it, or they are too weak to break free of memes and habits.

Jovick, all joking aside, are you REALLY a follower of christ? Given the fact that it would be akin to following Carl Sagan's "invisible dragon in the garage", did you mean you are following what was really written in the Bible? I could be all wrong about you. If you have indeed abandoned your family to follow this path, then I commend you. For you truly are a follower of Jesus and a person of your word;

“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine." Matthew 10:34

"And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.” Mark 10:29,30.

However, if you mean to say that you simply ignore what the bible says, follow the character created in your head based on how you choose to interpret the words in the bible or pick and choose said words, then you are as guilty as anyone else for not "following jesus christ". What you are merely doing is personifying your own good nature and instinct. One would hope.

What is good and what is right?

That's a good question. By society standards or your own? A while back it was 'good' to burn and torture people who didn't believe the way you did. Or kill someone if they didn't deny their own faith in lew of your own? Actually in some countries to this day, they will give you the chance to repent before they kill you for your blasphemy and heresy anyway, because its 'good' of them to give you the option of heaven to save your soul. Is it good to kill your daughter for "bringing shame" on your family after a rape? We say no, that idea repulses us. But remember some say yes and have no problem with it. You would argue its because they don't 'know' jesus, but many other people who live in countries who arent Christian nor are christian themselves, would be repulsed as well.

"Unfortunately… we are ALL sinners."

That's a very broad statement. Sinners to who? Ourselves? The church? Society? Better pick one cause they can all formulate different answers.

We ALL are unable to pay the price of being a sinner.

Well, apparently you aren't, but most I know get along fine. What is it that causes you to be so guilt ridden about yourself and why cant you take responsibility for it? In my opinion christians "pay the price" every day as do their poor children. Having to walk around with all that self loathing must really be hard, not to mention bad for your psyche.

and then there was this:

BTW... I honestly think that the people who existed thousands of years ago were just as intelligent if not more than those people walking the streets today. To kid yourself that people today are so much better than those who lived before us is quite arrogant.

You seriously need to either (A) read a lot of books on the real history of the area and society, or (B) Pack your bags and take a flight over there. Do some traveling around the mid-east. But don't go tourist, take a trip into the hills, because the further out you go the more people will reflect their ancestors and the beliefs. That's usually enough to get people to rethink following ANYTHING written out there so long ago.

The bible has been the most tested book ever written and has been scrutinized for thousands of years yet it has withstood. Name me one science book that can say the same..

Yes, and quite often you were killed, beaten, tortured, raped, enslaved or (more recently) ostracized if you didn't believe in it or you tested the church. Amazing how well that works for longevity. As far as moral gray areas, you will find that type of thing with any system of morals and personal beliefs. Regardless of what sources you pick and choose to back up your points. And like example of slavery, just because something is cool in the bible, (and jeebus says beating them is a whole lotta fun [Luke 12:47]), doesn't mean its cool today, so don't go quoting outdated/revisionist scripture to back up your claims of "morality".

[Guest]

Jovick I really don't think I can be bothered with this any more. I quote science and you quote superstition and sunday school stories. I am talking logic and reason. You are talking faith. Which is to say belief not in the absence of logic and reason, but belief in spite of logic and reason.

I believe because I look and think and reason. You believe because you want to believe. These are different languages and different world views. There is not a dialogue that can be had in this

[nemo0037]

My conscience is the Holy Spirit. ...

The Holy Spirit certainly lets me know when I do something wrong and I suffer spiritually when I do.

Interesting. So you beileve that God talks to you. Tell me -- has this god of yours ever told you something that you didn't already know? Seems to me that this would be the ONLY way you could be sure you weren't just talking to yourself.

Altruism comes from intimately knowing Christ Jesus.

This is, of course, nonsense. If this were the case, only Christians would be altruistic, and the Bible proves that is not so. If it were, the writer of Hebrews would never have even dreamed it would be necessary to exhort believers to be kind to strangers, or to give them the pathetic mind twist of telling them that angels may be checking on them in disguise.

Nobody makes anyone do anything. Everyone is responsible for their own personal choices of freewill.

This implies that you don't believe your god is omnipotent. Which is fine... I don't believe it either.

If I'm wrong about the afterlife then I have lost nothing. If you are wrong about the afterlife then you have lost EVERYTHING.

Ah yes... Pascal's Wager. This is also a nonsensical idea that holds no water in a debate.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/pascal.html

This is my essay on why that is the case.

Yup. . I am a follower of Christ. Do I fail? Sure do. Am I better than anyone else? Certainly not. But I try to walk as close to Christ as I can. The bible says there is none perfect.

I suggest you read 1 John. There you will see that the Bible says that True Christians never sin. I'd be looking into that.

Thankfully I'm not ignoring the bible and picking and choosing.

I expect you'll find that you also are picking out of the Bible what you want to believe and ignoring the inconvenient, ridiculous and downright insane, ugly stuff that surrounds it. Having read the entire Bible, I can assure you that there is no way to follow it completely.

You can not find fault with Christ Jesus and he is who you should be looking at.

Jesus, if he existed at all, was not a paragon of humanity. Much of what his is reported to have said led to the Dark Ages and the Divine Rights of Kings. More blood was spilled because of his words than just about any other person's in history. If he was "perfect" I would have expected a better influence on history. You have yet to see a single person killed because of anything Gandhi ever said. Comparing the two, I see a distinct advantage to the guy in the loincloth.

Christians have been the most tortued and killed people in the history of the world.

ROTFLMAO! Here's a perfect example of the mindjob that is Christianity! Christians controlled huge sectors of the world for thousands of years. They burned, flayed, mutilated and terrorized millions of people, did everything imaginable to destroy "heathen" cultures, and are currently trying their best to subvert the American system to follow THEIR extremist philosophy -- yet THEY are still poor, downtrodden victims!

Sin is doing something against God's will.

Do me a favor. Read 2 Samuel 24 and answer these questions: 1) What sin was committed that required the deaths of so many Israelis? 2) What path could David have taken that was NOT a sin?

However it must be really tuff thinking that when you die then that’s it.

Why would you think that? I mean, I think it would be frightening to consider an infinite amount of time, regardless of the place it is spent in. I'm perfectly OK with the idea that my existence is not permanent. I really can't see why that concept would bother anyone who took a couple of minutes to think it through.

Many atrocities have been committed by those who say they do it in the name of religeon or Christianity.

Would you not believe them? Why? Haven't you read the Bible? Do you not realize that it says that if God tells you to kill someone, you are required to do just that? You said earlier that God is your conscience. Would you follow the dictates of this conscience to the letter? Would you follow God's order to kill a little girl down your street? If not, why? If God told you that said little girl would grow up to give birth to a worse murderer than Saddam, would you?

Thats a lie and I'm calling you on it. That verse is taken from a well-known parable. Quite a good parable I must say and I recommend you read the entire chapter for the meaning..

He might have erred on one Bible quote regarding slavery, but there are many others. Read Philemon -- where Paul orders an escaped slave to return to his master. In fact read the whole Bible, and while you do so, ask yourself if there is anywhere a single word in ANY of the books that says or implies that slavery is wrong. Such a passage doesn't exist -- unless you take something out of context.

[Liv]

Would most agnostic define this the same way? I'll bet if you asked 100 agnostics that half just might disagree with some of your message. Its much easier to define the black and white issues but when you get to the gray areas is where it tends to get difficult. If I steal food from your refrigerator to feed my hungry kids am I immoral? If you are hungry and I have no food does that make me immoral. If I kill somebody in self-defense am I immoral?

I don't know if they would or not, and my beliefs, if you'd like to call it that, does not require the acceptance or obedience of others for me to live my own moral life.

But to be honest I think you've struck a good point. Agnosticism, and Atheism requires some level of intelligence, that most religions don't. In fact, without trying to offend anyone, if we assume religion has a purpose other then actually worshiping a deity, its to suppress those without the capability of full understanding their world, and to keep those ignorant people living moral lives, in order to keep society functioning.

In other-words atheism and agnosticism would not benefit our society because there are too many people unable to make the distinction between what's right and wrong in those gray areas. For those reasons religion is both a benefit and a curse to our world. It keeps millions of people brainwashed, and zombified, preventing them from creating anarchy, but in the same breath it prevents our society from fully becoming a intelligent group of individuals, because we deny ourselves the simplest ability to question. Reasoning and deduction have been replaced with faith, and fiction.

[nemo0037]

The Holy Spirit has revealed many things to me. Mostly what is right and what is wrong. The Holy Spirit convicts me and encourages me to give praise to Christ Jesus. Think of it as being an enahnced state of conscience. Kinda hard to explain it to a proud athiest though.

So this thing you believe talks to you doesn't tell you any facts. That's all I was asking.

(snip)

Are you not aware that Jesus existed before Abraham? I fail to see your logic here. You also assume that the Christian religeon has had no influence on persons other than Christians.

Why am I not surprised that you fail to see my logic? Dude, humans were behaving in civilized manners, building working social structures in the Americas, Africa and Asia, totally isolated from all "Christian" influences for millenia before any possible influence could occur.

Ahhh.....If you don't believe my God is omnipotent then that implies you believe in God. That's great! Let me know if you are looking for a good church.

Actually, my statement implies that I think all gods are impotent. Imaginary beings always are. But not to worry. I already have a good church I visit, where the folks don't worry about talking with an atheist.

I read the essay and I don't agree with your premises or your conclusions. An essay by you does not make any of it more reasonable.

Please explain what you don't agree with. Also, I only provided the link to save time.

Never says that at all. You are stretching.

Oh really? 1 Jn 3:6 - No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.

Please explain how it is stretching to give the plain meaning of the quote.

Reading and studying the bible are seperate things. The bible is a love letter to Christians. What are you doing reading somebody elses's mail?

It is also a document of eternal hatred and torment for "outsiders." What are you doing reading such terrible stuff?

Accusations you know you can't back up.

Just try me, bucko. I make every effort to only say things I can "back up."

You know he existed.

No, as a matter of fact, I don't know this. I do know that the New Testament story of Jesus is very similar to prior stories of other religions' messiahs, like Horus, Krishna, Dionisus, and even the god Tammuz, mentioned in Ezekiel.

I know that nothing Jesus is reported to have said -- nothing! -- was new philosophically or theologically.

I know that the history of Josephus holds no mention of any massacre of infants, and that the mntions of Jesus are insertions, pious frauds, inserted at awkward spots by Christian copyists.

So you see, there are many reasons to doubt the veracity of the New Testament on historical matters.

That's another stretch by you assuming that the visit by Jesus caused the dark ages.

I said no such thing. Be careful what you accuse me of.

He was perfect. We are not. You also presume to know what history would have been without Christ. Maybe your expectations of God is too high. God doesn't owe you or I anything.

I would expect a god who is all-powerful and loving to put togther a better product.

I reject your premise. We are under the dispensation of grace

Yeah, you've said that before. Does this mean that you feel free to make up whatever you want and that your god will sign off on it? Because that's what your use of the phrase sounds like to me.

I stand by my statement. Back yours up. Its a scary thought that you have to research something that you can't find on an atheist website.

Excuse me? Have you not read any history beyond the first century? Ever hear of the Inquisition, witch trials, the shameful actions of the "missionaries" in suppressing native languages and customs?

Sin is going against God's will. If God tells you to do something and you don't then its a sin. What part of that don't you understand? The verse you discuss you have to understand the it like the "straw the broke the camel's back" with God. God is a patient and forgiving God but people will endure the wrath of God after he has had enough. You can sin and sin and sin and God may not do anything right You see this around the world today. People forget that God is not just love. He is also righteous.

Interesting that you answered NEITHER of my questions about that CHAPTER of the Bible. In that chapter, the story says that God ordered David to take a census of the nation. He did, and was punished. Since this contradicts your statements, I can see why you refused to actually in fact respond to my questions. But I would hope that you might take a little time to think about the matter on your own.

You are your own judge. You may recount those very words in your eternity.

Here's another thing that I find bothersome about the Christian religion. It says that a portion of humanity will exist in Heaven for eternity, presumably happy and carefree. But the majority of humanity will be tortured for eternity in Hell -- and presumably the folks in Heaven won't find that one bit upsetting. Oh, I expect you have no qualms about me being in Hell. I';m just a stranger you've never met. But what about the people you do know? The Bible says that Jesus will be watching over the torments of the sinner for eternity. Would you like to check in on that action as well? Do you really think it'd be cool to hang with a being that likes to watch torture? Just wondering.

If what I am being told conflicts with God's holy word then it is not of the Holy spirit. That is an advantage that Christians have.

Don't dodge the question. "God's holy word" says that god has ordered the deaths of millions -- so you could be ordered to do hte same. Would you do as you were ordered?

The absense of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. The bible instructs you to have obedience to your authority unless it conflicts with the holy word.

Once again, that's a feeble attempt to dodge a tough question. The Bible lists an awful lot of things that God supposedly defines as evil. Christians are always as keen on identifying "sins of omission" as well as "sins of commission." The Bible was written over a period of at least 1000 years. Why might you think that this value -- one that we today hold dear and think of as one of the defining values of "civilization" -- was completely overlooked for that significant period of time?

I consider it a serious piece of evidence that the Bible is no different from any other "holy book." It was made up by humans, using the normal values of society at the time it was written. There is no great moral revelaion there, only the best that the people of Palestine could put together when they wrote that stuff down.

[BruceBurch]

What evil lurks in the heart of Liv...

I checked out the thread, and I gotta say... it blows my mind sometimes how blind some people are to anything outside of the realm of their own existence.

I'm with you, Liv. Organized Religion is full of poop.

[RebelSnake]

If you are agnostic or atheistic then you can have no real concept of good vs evil or right vs wrong.

And how do you reach this conclusion?

To admit that they exist heavily implies that there is a God.

Just like so many others, you erroneously assume all morality and sense of right and wrong can come only from your god. In America today, roughly ten per cent of the population identifies themselves as atheist or agnostic. Knowing this and the theist belief that morality can come only from god, why is it only one per cent of the prison population identifies themselves as atheist or agnostic? If morality were god based only, the prisons should be overflowing with atheists.

The first sin ever committed was when satan convinced Adam & Eve they could be like God if they ate of the forbidden fruit.

Wouldn't the first sin have been Lucifer rebelling against god? Satan could not have existed had not Lucifer surrendered to his pride.

I really want to know how an athiest or agnostic can define what is ethical or what is moral?

Do you really have to be told what is right or wrong? Aren't you smart enough to figure out for yourself that stealing is wrong, and helping those less fortunate is good?

[Liv]

Awww... can you feel the love in this thread or what?

[Jovick's Mom]

I don't mind you bashing religeon but please tone down the Christian faith bashing.

Please

Hey Jovick,

Your religion is stupid. And so are you.

Love,
your mom

[Sanjuro]

no, you pretty much have assholes of every belief.

[lmcquirter @sbcglobal.net]

Its pretty obvious to me that you should change your FAQ message because you are certainly not an agnostic. You have it all figured out.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

<deleted>

Did Jovick's stuff get zapped? By whom?

[Liv]

<deleted>

Did Jovick's stuff get zapped? By whom?

Himself, since it wasn't I.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

<deleted>

Did Jovick's stuff get zapped? By whom?

Himself, since it wasn't I.

Wonder if it was something I said...?

[Liv]

You know he's reading this... everyone waive to Jovick!!

[RebelSnake]

http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/quotes.html

The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be believed only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.'
-Robert G. Ingersoll