SFI Bible Study - part 40

by **SouthernFriedInfidel** » Thu May 31, 2007 1:17 pm

As always, I hope this can be a serious study of the Christian Bible, and I only ask that those who participate try to stay away from personal-level attacks. All pertinent comments are welcome, regardless of whether you are a believer or not.

Recall a little while back, when looking in the book of Psalms, that we saw some passages that appeared to imply that those who were on God’s "favorites" list would lead a perfect life? It seems there are also a fair number of such passages of this sort in Proverbs, also.

Prov 1:29-33 - Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD, would have none of my counsel, and despised all my reproof, therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way and be sated with their own devices. For waywardness kills the simple, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but those who listen to me will be secure and will live at ease, without dread of disaster.

Prov 10:3 - The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

Prov 10:24 - What the wicked dread will come upon them, but the desire of the righteous will be
granted.

Prov 12:21 - No harm happens to the righteous, but the wicked are filled with trouble.

When we were seeing this sort of thing in Psalms, there was the point to be made that such statements were simply part of the ritual events of life and death in the ancient Jewish world. I’m not sure at this time what the Jewish use of Proverbs was, originally, but it appears clear these are supposed to be a guide for wisdom, perhaps a blueprint for how a person should live their life and a listing of the advantages to be gained from following it.

In other words, it surely appears that this is saying that if you follow these rules or guidelines, things will indeed be quite nice in your life.

Comments?

by **RebelSnake** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:42 pm

And if things are going wrong in your life, then you must not be rightous enough. Nice little escape clause there.

by **A Person** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:34 pm

those who listen to me will be secure and will live at ease, without dread of disaster.
...
The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry
...
the desire of the righteous will be granted.
...
No harm happens to the righteous

If these were actually true then the God hypothesis would be unassailable. But since good and bad things happen to the righteous, evil, believers and unbelievers alike then clearly the Bible contains lies. The Lord does let the righteous go hungry and harm happen to them. While I don't want to pt words into BHL's mouth, apologists have to 'interpret' this away by claiming this refers to the afterlife. Or else it's the fault of those pesky homosexuals, God's aim is bad and the righteous get nailed by friendly fire.

by **RebelSnake** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:12 pm

C'mon dude, you can do better than that. Use your imagination a little here. People are just not rightous enough. god is testing them to see how strong their faith is, a la job. god works in mysterious ways and us lowly humans just aren't meant to know and can't possibly fathom the reasoning behind it all. See how easy it is to come up with excuses? :mrgreen:

by **A Person** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:34 pm

How abot the universal:

We cannot be righteous as long as we allow others to sin.

Praise the lord and pass the faggots.

(Bundles of sticks that is)

by **RebelSnake** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:39 pm

Faggots used to be a slang word for cigarettes too, ya know.

By A Person
Features Reporter
Published: Thu May 31, 2007 3:34 pm

How about the universal:

We cannot be righteous as long as we allow others to sin.

Ah yes, the old controlling other people's behavior routine. Isn't it kind of weird how much christians and muslims have in common in this area?

by **BecauseHeLives** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:30 pm

The bible contains no lies.

Before you can begin to interpret those passages you must have a solid definition of "Righteous". Anyone care to give us a defintion?

A definition for hungry?

A definition for Desire of Righteous?

by **A Person** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:22 pm

Why don't you have a go. I'd hate to guess your definition.

by **BecauseHeLives** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:29 pm

A Person wrote:Why don't you have a go. I'd hate to guess your definition.

I wasn't the one who made the concrete conclusion. That's why I would like to see how they define those terms and then I might understand their conclusions. Maybe you could join the conversation and give your definitions as well?

by **RebelSnake** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:02 am

Prov 10:3 - The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

Prov 10:24 - What the wicked dread will come upon them, but the desire of the righteous will be
granted.

Prov 12:21 - No harm happens to the righteous, but the wicked are filled with trouble.

WordNet - Cite This Source righteous

adjective
1. characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice; "the...prayer of a righteous man availeth much"- James 5:16

There it is, straight out of the dictionary. But I know you would define it somewhere along the line of a devout christian wholely dedicating his life to christ. That may not be exactly how you would put it, but I know it's not far off the mark. BTW, it's not "Desire of Righteous", but "the desire of the righteous". If all you're going to do is quibble over definitions then please just be quiet. I think everyone here knows how to use a dictionary if the need arises. As for conclusions, the conclusion seems to be that the verses in question don't match up to everyday life here in the real world.

by **SouthernFriedInfidel** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:30 am

BecauseHeLives wrote:The bible contains no lies.

Before you can begin to interpret those passages you must have a solid definition of "Righteous". Anyone care to give us a defintion?

You know, the NT says that those who believe in Jesus are made righteous by their faith. No doubt you know the passage I'm referring to...

by **SouthernFriedInfidel** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:56 am

A Person wrote:But since good and bad things happen to the righteous, evil, believers and unbelievers alike then clearly the Bible contains lies. The Lord does let the righteous go hungry and harm happen to them.

I think that this might could be seen as true if you take these terms to mean purely spiritual things. Thus, whatever might happen to a believer in the realm of the physical, God won't allow spiritual damage to happen.

If this is the "escape route" that is used, it paves the way for interpreting an awful lot of the Bible in terms that have nothing at all to to with the physical universe -- a sort of mystical view, if I understand the term correctly...

by **A Person** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:35 am

The context and wording all refer to the present physical world. I understand this is a problem since the Bible says this and it isn't true of the physical world. Fortunately the afterlife is an easy escape route since it's a one way passage. No one has eve come back to say "Hey the afterlife sucks"

I believe that righteous in this context means just and fair.

If the passages do refer to the afterlife then since the Bible says that simply by doing righteous things one is righteous, nothing bad can happen to you in the afterlife. Seems one is saved by works after all.
Edited to remove typos

by **BecauseHeLives** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:19 am

Romans 3:10 (King James Version)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

SFI was very close in his last post...

Prov 10:3 - The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

This obviously refers to spiritual hunger (which is a very real thing)

Prov 10:24 - What the wicked dread will come upon them, but the desire of the righteous will be
granted.

The "desire of the righteous" refers to God's desire. When a person becomes saved and is close to God the desires of that person coincide perfectly with the desires of God.

Prov 12:21 - No harm happens to the righteous, but the wicked are filled with trouble.

I interpret this as a reference to salvation. Salvation is a permanent thing and no harm can come to it (can't be taken away).

BTW.. Righteousness.... is justification
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/d ... d=T0002147

by **RebelSnake** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:44 pm

BecauseHeLives wrote:Romans 3:10 (King James Version)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Sounds very contradictory to me. "There is none righteous" and then we have all these other verses refering to righteous people.

BecauseHeLives wrote:Prov 10:24 - What the wicked dread will come upon them, but the desire of the righteous will be
granted.

The "desire of the righteous" refers to God's desire. When a person becomes saved and is close to God the desires of that person coincide perfectly with the desires of God.

This is the OT, dude. There were no saved souls then. I just love the way you bend and twist things to mean what you want them too, instead of what they so obviously state.

BecauseHeLives wrote:Prov 12:21 - No harm happens to the righteous, but the wicked are filled with trouble.

I interpret this as a reference to salvation. Salvation is a permanent thing and no harm can come to it (can't be taken away).

Once again dude, OT here, not NT. Salvation was not an option yet. No jesus on the cross yet.

by **BecauseHeLives** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:50 pm

I didn't bring up the old testament quotes. YOU guys did.

Any reference to salvation in the old testament does indeed (as you said) point to the crucifixtion and rising from the dead of Jesus Christ. What is your point?

by **RebelSnake** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:54 pm

BecauseHeLives wrote:I didn't bring up the old testament quotes. YOU guys did.

Any reference to salvation in the old testament does indeed (as you said) point to the crucifixtion and rising from the dead of Jesus Christ. What is your point?

None of these verses say anything about salvation.

by **BecauseHeLives** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:57 pm

RebelSnake wrote:
BecauseHeLives wrote:I didn't bring up the old testament quotes. YOU guys did.

Any reference to salvation in the old testament does indeed (as you said) point to the crucifixtion and rising from the dead of Jesus Christ. What is your point?

None of these verses say anything about salvation.

Are you saying that none of the verses mentioned above talks about salvation
OR
None of the verses in the old testament discuss salvation?

by **RebelSnake** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:37 pm

None of the verses under discussion say anything about salvation. Salvation's not even the topic.

In other words, it surely appears that this is saying that if you follow these rules or guidelines, things will indeed be quite nice in your life

by **BecauseHeLives** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:43 pm

RebelSnake wrote:None of the verses under discussion say anything about salvation. Salvation's not even the topic.
In other words, it surely appears that this is saying that if you follow these rules or guidelines, things will indeed be quite nice in your life

I disagree. The righteous are the justified. Those who are justified have salvation. The following previously mentioned verses do indeed pertain to salvation.

Prov 10:3 - The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

Prov 10:24 - What the wicked dread will come upon them, but the desire of the righteous will be
granted.

Prov 12:21 - No harm happens to the righteous, but the wicked are filled with trouble.

by **A Person** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:55 pm

BecauseHeLives wrote:Romans 3:10 (King James Version)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

BecauseHeLives wrote:
Prov 10:3 - The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

This obviously refers to spiritual hunger (which is a very real thing)

Why is that obvious? In a a collection of verses that talk of working hard and not sleeping through the harvest, poverty and wealth, fair weights and measures, why is it 'obvious' that that does not actually mean hunger. There are plenty of other words to better describe spiritual longing and desire.

BecauseHeLives wrote:
Prov 12:21 - No harm happens to the righteous, but the wicked are filled with trouble.

I interpret this as a reference to salvation. Salvation is a permanent thing and no harm can come to it (can't be taken away).

What a lot of 'interpreting' you have to do. Don't you find it strange that so much of the Bible needs this convoluted 'interpreting' to be consistent. Given that you have to 'interpret so much of the Bible to mean something different to what it actually says - why do you insist that Genesis must not be 'interpreted' to match observations of God's actual creation?

by **RebelSnake** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:08 pm

A Person wrote:What a lot of 'interpreting' you have to do. Don't you find it strange that so much of the Bible needs this convoluted 'interpreting' to be consistent. Given that you have to 'interpret so much of the Bible to mean something different to what it actually says - why do you insist that Genesis must not be 'interpreted' to match observations of God's actual creation?

Bingo. Why don't you beLIEve what it says BHL? Why twist it so it means what you want it to?

by **BecauseHeLives** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:11 pm

Bingo. Why don't you beLIEve what it says BHL? Why twist it so it means what you want it to?

Quite the contrary. Twisting it is EXACTLY what you guys do with every verse in the bible. You don't have to go any further then looking at all of SFI's infusions of "bible study" each week.

by **RebelSnake** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:19 pm

Okay then, explain why Prov.12:21 is a reference to salvation instead of what it actually says. No harm shall come to the righteous. Why do you interpret it in this manner?

by **SouthernFriedInfidel** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:23 pm

BecauseHeLives wrote:Quite the contrary. Twisting it is EXACTLY what you guys do with every verse in the bible. You don't have to go any further then looking at all of SFI's infusions of "bible study" each week.

For the record, I try not to "twist" anything. I merely ask that folks express their views and discuss them in (hopefully) a civil manner. I don't always achieve that goal, I admit, but I do have hopes...

But the point here is that I don't give my opinions of these passages in hopes of making anyone adopt my views. I hold my views and appreciate others giving theirs, and if new ways of seeing things comes out in some of these exchanges, that's cool, IMO.