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SFI Bible Study - part 24

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:04 pm

As always, I hope this can be a serious study of the Christian Bible, and I only ask that those who participate try to stay away from personal-level attacks. All pertinent comments are welcome, regardless of whether you are a believer or not.

Here's one more odd story about Elisha, the fellow I like to think of as God's sorcerer. I'd spend more time on him than just two posts, but I have so much more material to cover. Those who are curious, should read 2 Ki 1-6 to see all the weirdness.
2 Ki 5:20-27 - Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, thought, "My master has let that Aramean Naaman off too lightly by not accepting from him what he offered. As the LORD lives, I will run after him and get something out of him." So Gehazi went after Naaman. When Naaman saw someone running after him, he jumped down from the chariot to meet him and said, "Is everything all right?" He replied, "Yes, but my master has sent me to say, 'Two members of the company of prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim; please give them a talent of silver and two changes of clothing.'" Naaman said, "Please accept two talents." He urged him, and tied up two talents of silver in two bags, with two changes of clothing, and gave them to two of his servants, who carried them in front of Gehazi. When he came to the citadel, he took the bags from them, and stored them inside; he dismissed the men, and they left.

He went in and stood before his master; and Elisha said to him, "Where have you been, Gehazi?" He answered, "Your servant has not gone anywhere at all." But he said to him, "Did I not go with you in spirit when someone left his chariot to meet you? Is this a time to accept money and to accept clothing, olive orchards and vinyards, sheep and oxen, and male and female slaves? Therefore, the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you, and to your descendants forever." So he left his presence leprous, as white as snow.

A bit of background. After being cured of leprosy, Naaman was so happy he offered Elisha all sorts of riches, which Elisha turned down (a rare event for a priest!). Gehazi decided to engage in a little freelance fleecing, then tries to lie his way out of trouble when he's caught. So far, so good. Now comes the fun. Elisha claims to have performed what appears to be astral projection, to spy on his underling!

I recall a Christian friend some time ago telling me that this sort of thing was a practice of devil-worshippers. So there's some new material he'll enjoy reading here, I'd guess. And yet again, we see a punishment for one person being visited for no reason on all his descendants.

Comments?
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Postby jb » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:50 am

Back up to Exodus 20:5 and everyone will remember tha God is a jealous GOD. I guess this story bothers you........why?

What is wrong with punishment for disobeying God?
jb
 

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:12 am

jb wrote:Back up to Exodus 20:5 and everyone will remember tha God is a jealous GOD. I guess this story bothers you........why?

What is wrong with punishment for disobeying God?

Please explain how all of Gehazi's descendants deserve this punishment. Also, if you wouldn't mind, please explain how Gehazi's actions "disobeyed" God.
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Postby jb » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:55 am

I like your question. There was something in his heart that meant more to him than God, his desire for money. Gehazi deceived Naaman in order to satisfy his desire for material gain. Gehazi sought to use the grace of God granted to another individual for his own material advantage. This was equivalent to making merchandise of God’s grace. (2 Cor 2:17) (please lets not discuss T.V evangelists here)

Are you ignoring the Grace that God showed Naaman and only looking for a way to prove to youself that God is bad?

Exodus 20: 5 is why the descendants deserve this punishment. How would you like to be Gehazi explaining that to his grandson. Grandpa….why do we have leprosy? ……..I tried to use God’s grace for material gain.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:42 am

jb wrote:I like your question. There was something in his heart that meant more to him than God, his desire for money. Gehazi deceived Naaman in order to satisfy his desire for material gain. Gehazi sought to use the grace of God granted to another individual for his own material advantage. This was equivalent to making merchandise of God’s grace. (2 Cor 2:17) (please lets not discuss T.V evangelists here)

I'd think that this would be the perfect place to discuss this particular species of pond scum. Why exempt them? Just wondering.
Are you ignoring the Grace that God showed Naaman and only looking for a way to prove to youself that God is bad?

To begin with, I don't believe in God. My view is that these bits from the Bible are a matter of people putting words into God's mouth, sort of a reflection of their own ideas of "justice" and morality. So what it looks like to me is that the creators of these legends thought it was natural for innocent children to suffer for what their parents did. Whereas in our society, we reject that notion... or would if we weren't using this book of legends from an alien culture as a guide to what is right and wrong.
Exodus 20: 5 is why the descendants deserve this punishment. How would you like to be Gehazi explaining that to his grandson. Grandpa….why do we have leprosy? ……..I tried to use God’s grace for material gain.

And this sounds OK to you, does it? You would have no problem with God punishing you for something your grandfather did decades before you were born?
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Postby jb » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:22 pm

And this sounds OK to you, does it? You would have no problem with God punishing you for something your grandfather did decades before you were born?
lol.....my problem with be with my Grandfather not God.

To begin with, I don't believe in God. My view is that these bits from the Bible are a matter of people putting words into God's mouth, sort of a reflection of their own ideas of "justice" and morality. So what it looks like to me is that the creators of these legends thought it was natural for innocent children to suffer for what their parents did. Whereas in our society, we reject that notion... or would if we weren't using this book of legends from an alien culture as a guide to what is right and wrong.


Question: Why do you spend so much time reading something you believe to be false? Are you not 100% convinced that God is NOT REAL. Is there some part of you that is seeking the truth in this world?

I find you interesting because of how you stay in the Old Test., which I think, is good. I say that because it's as if you realize that if you can destroy the very foundation that Christianity if based on then everything else will crumble. But, then again...why do you care? I know why I talk about Jesus.... Because he has changed my life and I can't keep quiet. WOW! God is so good to me…
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Postby A Person » Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:14 pm

jb wrote:Question: Why do you spend so much time reading something you believe to be false? Are you not 100% convinced that God is NOT REAL. Is there some part of you that is seeking the truth in this world?
Isn't the objective to read things to understand them and see if they are real?

If you only read things that you a priori believe to be true then how will you ever learn anything?

I am an agnostic in the true sense of the word. I am atheistic when it comes to the Norse, Roman and Greek Gods, and after reading the Bible I am firmly atheistic about Yahweh. I'm sure you've heard it before, but I only disbelieve in one less God than you. (edit: Ooops - too many negatives there. I believe in one less god, or I disbelieve one more God :oops: )
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:38 pm

jb wrote:Question: Why do you spend so much time reading something you believe to be false?

Because I am surrounded by people who say they believe the Bible -- but they almost never read it. I think they need someone like me to educate them in the contents of this thing they love to collect, swear oaths on, and wave in MY face. They need desperately to know more than just bloody Jn 3:16. They need to know the contradictions, the moral ugliness, the rank ignorance that "God's word" contains. They sure won't learn about all of that by attending Sunday School.

So in the future, please try to keep in mind -- when I talk in these threads about God, it's not that I believe in it, other than as a character in a fiction book. I hope that we can at least converse about this stuff using that convention. If not... well, I'm sorry.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:42 pm

jb wrote:I find you interesting because of how you stay in the Old Test., which I think, is good.

Well on this matter -- I have 104 of these things, which I posted a few years ago in Usenet's alt.atheism. If you hang with me, we'll go straight through the whole Protestant Bible.

I apologize to the Catholics here -- I haven't taken the time to do the Apocrypha yet. Which means I skipped the bits of the Book of Daniel that were zapped by Luther, Calvin and the rest of tha crowd. Maybe one day...
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Postby jb » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:09 pm

Interesting…you see contradictions and I see a just God. I see things as Black and White with no gray area. You see a vindictive God. Why you think that is?

You can call the Bible fiction all you want and it does not bother me. I have read my Bible and I have experienced first hand how Jesus has changed my life and I’m not ashamed of the Gospel. But you know as well as I do that this debate will be settled when we die and if you’re wrong you have lost everything.
jb
 

Postby jb » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:17 pm

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:Well on this matter -- I have 104 of these things, which I posted a few years ago in Usenet's alt.atheism. If you hang with me, we'll go straight through the whole Protestant Bible.


Sounds interesting....but why me?

Also, if you do start keep in mind my time is very limited due to prev. engagements. From time to time it may be a month or two before I'm able to get back with you and comment on your subject matter. But, I'll try. Then again I may be fee like the last few days. But, do explain why you would like for me to hang with you..
jb
 

Postby A Person » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:21 pm

Sounds like Pascal's Wager is getting dusted off again.

Maybe we're all wrong.

Maybe the Bible is God's test to see if you have used the intelligence 'he gave you' to come to a logical conclusion. Would you want to stand before him and receive an F in logic?
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Postby jb » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:30 pm

Pascal's Wager...Thanks for saying that. I kept thinking in my mind...who said that???...

I'm a conservative for the most part but I did go to a very Liberal college. Crazy huhh.
jb
 

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:15 pm

jb wrote:
SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:Well on this matter -- I have 104 of these things, which I posted a few years ago in Usenet's alt.atheism. If you hang with me, we'll go straight through the whole Protestant Bible.


Sounds interesting....but why me?

Also, if you do start keep in mind my time is very limited due to prev. engagements. From time to time it may be a month or two before I'm able to get back with you and comment on your subject matter. But, I'll try. Then again I may be fee like the last few days. But, do explain why you would like for me to hang with you..

It's nothing personal. Only you were commenting on my sticking to the Old Testament. I was merely letting you know that I have a lot more items from the Bible to discuss. I'll be posting whether you choose to discuss them or not. And if you are otherwise engaged, these posts will stay here until you get back -- or until they're erased by some higher power for some ineffable reason. :wink:
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:24 am

jb wrote:
And this sounds OK to you, does it? You would have no problem with God punishing you for something your grandfather did decades before you were born?
lol.....my problem with be with my Grandfather not God.

So you accept that the Old Testament version of "justice" is good and moral. So should humans implement this concept? If a grandfather murders someone and ges sentenced to life in prison, should we also punish all his children and his grandchildren -- throw the whole bunch into prison even though they did nothing illegal?

If not, why not?
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Postby RebelSnake » Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:07 am

jb
And this sounds OK to you, does it? You would have no problem with God punishing you for something your grandfather did decades before you were born?

lol.....my problem with be with my Grandfather not God.


This is something that boggles the mind. Your god punishes you for something you had no part of, but you're going to be mad at your grandfather??? Your grandfather's not the one punishing you for being related to him.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:48 am

RebelSnake wrote:This is something that boggles the mind. Your god punishes you for something you had no part of, but you're going to be mad at your grandfather??? Your grandfather's not the one punishing you for being related to him.

Another item that occurred to me on this subject is that in the New Testament, Jesus repudiated this concept, in a way. When asked about a person blind from birth and which ancestor had sinned to make him that way, Jesus said that wasn't the reason the person was blind. Jn 9:1-3

Not that he had a much more comforting explanation for the person being blind. But it's perhaps better than nothing...

Now that I think about it, I seem to recall some prophets who talked about people only being punished for their own sins. I'll have t look them up, if jb is curious about this contradiction in the Bible...
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Postby jb » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:37 am

I am an agnostic in the true sense of the word.


So what proof would you need to believe that Jesus Christ is God's only Son? Apart from seeing Him face to face.

If you got that proof then would you ever serve Him since he is the same God of the OT?

jb
jb
 

Postby jb » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:41 am

To begin with, I don't believe in God.

Does this mean you are an atheist?

jb
jb
 

Postby A Person » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:00 pm

jb wrote:So what proof would you need to believe that Jesus Christ is God's only Son? Apart from seeing Him face to face.

If you got that proof then would you ever serve Him since he is the same God of the OT?

jb
Agnostic does not mean undecided, it means that it is unknowable whether there is a god. Having read the Bible, which is the only source of knowledge about Yahweh, Christ and the Holy Spirit, I am firmly convinced that it is the work of men and describes God in those terms. The words, ideas and themes reflect the social and scientific understanding of the time and the God of the OT acts very like the patriarchs of the time and performed huge miracles (stopping the world rotating - or making the sun stand still). By the time of the NT Jesus was promoting a more modern social awareness from the perspective of one who was not in power - the antithesis of Yahweh. The miracles became much less impressive (reluctantly performing some minor faith healing). That Jesus could somehow be the same being as Yahweh is so incongruous as to be unbelievable. The philosophy and morality espoused are poles apart. Even the words 'son of' are meaningless and incomprehensible when referring to supernatural beings. If Jesus didn't need a father, why would he need a mother? What's wrong with the old dust and breath of life trick or grabbing the odd rib?

For me to be convinced that Jesus is the son of Yahweh, I would first have to be convinced that Yahweh was actually a God.

Which is why I'm atheistic regarding Yahweh. I think Jesus very likely existed as a real man, who fought for social reform, against tyranny and corruption in the Church; who survived crucifixion and later died. Paul corrupted his teachings and founded the Christian Church. If Jesus were to return today, he wouldn't recognise his teachings in the Church today, and the Church certainly wouldn't recognize him.
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Postby jb » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:41 am

If Jesus were to return today, he wouldn't recognise his teachings in the Church today, and the Church certainly wouldn't recognize him.
[/quote]

Sounds like a song by Todd Agnew called My Jesus..listen to it...you might like it...

Agnostic.......I didn't mean you were undecided but rather unknowable due to lack of evidence in your eyes.

The miracles became much less impressive "(reluctantly performing some minor faith healing

WOOOO.....Jesus calming the storm is just as great as the sun standing still. Sun vs wind and rain...come on.....The blind man...Heaven opening up and GOd speaking so all could hear Him say this is my Son.....Feeding 5 thousand......Walking on Water.....Raising Lazarus from the dead...Virgin Birth...............You ought to reconsider.

I am firmly convinced that it is the work of men and describes God in those terms.
Rethink my eailer question.....What would have to happen to change your mind and make you say...I was wrong? Sun standing still again....someone coming back to life after being dead three days.....etc...etc..?
jb
 

Postby RebelSnake » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:40 pm

Why is it no civilization has ever recorded the sun standing still? Surely something that dramatic and mind boggling couldn't go unnoticed or unrecorded? Yet it did.
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Postby BecauseHeLives » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:23 pm

RebelSnake wrote:Why is it no civilization has ever recorded the sun standing still? Surely something that dramatic and mind boggling couldn't go unnoticed or unrecorded? Yet it did.


If it wasn't recorded anywhere then how do we know about it?
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Postby A Person » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:39 pm

jb wrote: Rethink my eailer question.....What would have to happen to change your mind and make you say...I was wrong? Sun standing still again....someone coming back to life after being dead three days.....etc...etc..?
See my response here: Resurrected or resuscitated
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Postby A Person » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:05 pm

I wanted to put the Resurrection response in a thread of it's own, but I acknowledge that it doesn't answer your question. That response is just 'why that miracle doesn't convince me" your question is "what would convince me".

One thing that I think would be convincing is if prayer worked. Not the odd isolated anecdotal "My son prayed to God and got the prize Easter egg" but if Christians did not get ill, or all were cured by prayer. If Christians could regenerate amputated legs by praying. etc.

The rapture would be pretty convincing too. If all Christians were to suddenly be plucked into heaven simultaneously.

You'll note that I'm not referring to isolated incidents. "Pastor Joe disappeared last week - it must be the rapture", "Aunt Betty's cancer went into remission after the ladies in the prayer circle prayed for her" or another Jonestown incident would not be convincing to me and I suspect you.

On a similar topic what would convince me that evolution was wrong? Finding mammal fossils in rocks reliably identified as pre-Cambrian would do it. Looking out into space and seing nothing further than 7,000 light years away.
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