SFI Bible Study - part 15

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

As always, I hope this can be a serious study of the Christian Bible, and I only ask that those who participate try to stay away from personal-level attacks. All pertinent comments are welcome, regardless of whether you are a believer or not.

This time, we will have a little more fun studying Gideon. It appears that he was to some small degree a skeptic. His grasp of logic, however, appears to have been rather tenuous.

Judg 6:36-40 - Then Gideon said to God, "In order to see whether you will deliver Israel by my hand, as you have said, I am going to lay a fleece of wool on the threshing floor; if there is dew on the fleece alone, and it is dry on all the ground, then I shall know that you will deliver Israel by my hand, as you have said." And it was so. When he rose early the next morning and squeezed the fleece, he wrung enough dew from the fleece to fill a bowl with water. Then Gideon said to God, "Do not let your anger burn against me, let me speak one more time; let me, please, make trial with the fleece just once more; let it be dry only on the fleece, and on all the ground let there be dew." And God did so that night. It was dry on the fleece only, and on all the ground there was dew.

As with the last episode, let's apply a little logic here. One could hardly blame Gideon for being skeptical as to whether God was speaking to him (or that God meant what he said). But his method for checking God's credentials leaves something to be desired. First, he picks a test that could have been accomplished by human tricksters, given a night and some easily obtained materials (a bowl of water, indeed!). He appeared to recognize that the test wasn't really significant, so he thinks to "cleverly" change the desired result. Why this would be more significant than the first test is anyone's guess.

Secondly, if he was looking for supernatural confirmation of what he understood to be God talking to him, I wonder why it didn't occur to him that Satan could be tricking him. Surely, if Satan was around back then, it should have been a concern, but it isn't mentioned here. I think it's because the Hebrews hadn't yet picked up that myth, and wouldn't until much later, when they came in contact with the Babylonian and Persian cultural influences during captivity.

Third, what is all this about God jumping through Gideon's hoops? Why do you think God played this game with the fleece, but when skeptics of today ask for some "sign" as evidence for God, they are told that "God doesn't do tricks for people"?

Comments?

[A Person]

Gideon conducted a genuine experiment and tried to rule out environmental factors. Dew might naturally collect in a fleece overnight, so he required God to demonstrate both results to rule out a natural solution.

I could think of several ways that God could confirm his existence that would persuade me - a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic. But God doesn't do that stuff any more. I hear he's getting on a bit and letting his son run the family business.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

Gideon conducted a genuine experiment and tried to rule out environmental factors. Dew might naturally collect in a fleece overnight, so he required God to demonstrate both results to rule out a natural solution.

If the first experiment was known to be non-indicative before hand, there would be no reasonable use in performing it. Plus, it's truly impossible to factor out supernatural possibilities using any means available to mere humans.

I could think of several ways that God could confirm his existence that would persuade me - a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic. But God doesn't do that stuff any more. I hear he's getting on a bit and letting his son run the family business.

If only one supernatural being existed, I would agree... it could convince me pretty readily. However, if we buy into the multi-theist view of all religions then there's no hope. Self-identification of the being is useless and there are no ID cards that we could trust.

Which is another reason I think Occam's Razor helps here.

[A Person]

A single experiment might not be indicative but the pair of them are a lot less likely to be due to chance or natural events. But it is still a weak and unconvincing demonstration

I agree you can never rule out a supernatural solution (i.e. the God hypothesis is unfalsifiable) all you can do is demonstrate that there is no evidence to support it and considerable evidence against.

Your question "If a powerful with supernatural powers were to 'prove his existence' how would you prove it to be God" is more difficult to answer. But I suspect it wouldn't really matter. If it proved to be as nasty as YHWH it would be indistinguishable from Satan anyway. If he chose to test me as he did Abraham I would fail the test. I couldn't be as Jephthah.

[A Person]