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SFI Bible Study - part 8

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:30 pm

As always, I hope this can be a serious study of the Christian Bible, and I only ask that those who participate try to stay away from personal-level attacks. All pertinent comments are welcome, regardless of whether you are a believer or not.

Continuing with Numbers. Lots of fun stuff left to look at there.
Num 16:23-35 - And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: "Say to the congregation: Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram." So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram; the elders of Israel followed him. He said to the congregation, "Turn away from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins." So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. And Moses said, "This is how you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works; it has not been of my own accord: If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes on them, then the LORD has not sent me. But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them,then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD.

As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up along with their households - everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, "The earth will swallow us too!" And fire came out from the LORD and consumed two hundred fifty men offering the incense.

So this is what happens when some guys go wrong. God kills them, their wives, children and babies. Sucks them all under the ground, along with everything they own, and toasts a couple hundred innocent bystanders (who were presumably following instructions!) as a bonus. This is supposed to be justice?

I find it interesting that this passage is said by some scholars to be related to passages in the Book of Psalms that indicate that God doesn't require sacrifices. As I understand it, temple musicians (those who wrote the Psalms and other worship-related material) were not happy that the priests didn't "share the wealth" brought in by the sacrifices of the people, so they wrote songs and poetry that threatened the priestly income. The priests are said to have retaliated by writing this story of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, three "musical types," who went astray.

This is sort of like the conflict in Exodus where YHWH's champions and their magic were shown as stronger than the priests of Egypt. It appears to have been a propaganda war preserved for posterity.

Comments?
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Postby RebelSnake » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:02 pm

If their god doesn't require a sacrifice, why would anyone bother? It seems like I can recall somewhere in the OT that god is pleased by the aroma of a charred carcass. To be honest I can't really remember if it's there or not.
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Postby A Person » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:58 pm

Genesis 8:20-21 wrote: And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
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Postby A Person » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:12 pm

Watch out sympathizing. The next day God sent a plague among the sympathizers and killed another 14,700.

Now according to the Bible - how many generations was that after Noah - what was the population of the Earth then?
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Postby A Person » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:35 pm

So let's do some math using Creation Science principles :)

Answers in Genesis wrote:Simple, conservative arithmetic reveals clear mathematical logic for a young age of the earth. From two people, created around 6,000 years ago, and then the eight people, preserved on the Ark about 4,500 years ago, the world’s population could have grown to the extent we now see it—over 6.5 billion.


Population calculations:

Pn = P(1+r)^n
where
P= starting population
r = growth rate
n = periods
Pn is population after n periods

Population at end of flood = 8
Present population = 6,500,000,000
Years = 4455
Therefore r= 0.0047

Now Moses led the people out of Egypt in 1706 BC. 642 years after the flood. The population of the earth would have been:

8*1.0047^642 = 162 people.

But God killed 14,700? How can that be?
Perhaps my r value is wrong. Let's use the "Father of Creation Science" Henry Morris's value of 0.0033.

Oh dear now we only get 66 people for God to play with. Could Creation Science be wrong?
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Postby RebelSnake » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:40 pm

Oh dear now we only get 66 people for God to play with. Could Creation Science be wrong?


Has it ever been right?
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Postby jb » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:43 am

Vs 23..Then the Lord said to Moses, (24) “Say to the assembly, Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.

God’s judgment was going to be severe, but he did not want to lash out against bystanders so he says Move away. Then in verse 26 we see it said….Move Back. This whole thing started because Korah wanted to be priest, and he used deception to advance his claim.

Korah sons did not die…26:11; apparently they did not join their father in his plan.

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Postby jb » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:02 am

Oh dear now we only get 66 people for God to play with. Could Creation Science be wrong?


Humm..Interesting question...I ask you..Could Evolution be wrong with these numbers?
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Postby A Person » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:12 pm

You've lost me there. Those are Creation Science numbers derived using population calculations from Henry Morris. (Scientific Creationism, 1974, p. 167-168)

Of course the numbers are wrong, the model is wrong and the assumptions are wrong

Evolution is simply predicated on more offspring being produced than can survive. Wide population swings are normal and expected.
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Postby BecauseHeLives » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:28 pm

A Person wrote:You've lost me there. Those are Creation Science numbers derived using population calculations from Henry Morris. (Scientific Creationism, 1974, p. 167-168)

Of course the numbers are wrong, the model is wrong and the assumptions are wrong

Evolution is simply predicated on more offspring being produced than can survive. Wide population swings are normal and expected.


I wonder if those numbers include the prolonged life of a person and the associated longer child-bearing years. Since those on the ark knew it was their duty to go forth and multiply and they have longer child-bearing years then it would not be out of the question for each woman to have 40-50 children a piece. Or maybe even more.
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Postby A Person » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:02 pm

Henry Morris's growth model was a simple compound interest calculation.

The limiting factor to population growth has never been the ability to reproduce - rather the ability to survive.

Eight people, tens of thousands of animals (according to CS) in a desolated landscape destroyed by a flood. (What did those big cats and carnivorous dinosaurs eat?)
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