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SFI Bible Study -- Week 1

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:06 pm

Greetings!

Every so often, I get an e-mail or other sort of mssage from Christians to the effect that I might find it worthwhile to stidy the Bible. Apparently, there is this idea that reading that particular book will lead one to God. Well, a few years ago, I undertook the task of putting together a series of newsgroup posts along those lines. I will reproduce them here, hoping to stir up some interesting conversation and perhaps show some folks a few new things about this book.

So over the coming period of time (however long interest is sustained), I'll post a new thread every week with a chosen snippet from the Bible. I'll add my thoughts on the passage and invite responses from believers and non-believers. I only ask that everyone stick to commenting on the passages, and refrain from comments on other posters' ancestry and mental capacity. Thank you.

For my first weekly post, I think starting at the beginning is a good policy. Let's look in on the story of Eden...

Gen 2:15-17 – The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

and

Gen 3:4-7 – But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.


Well, let’s look at this famous passage for problems! First off, the serpent tells Eve the truth – she didn’t die, and she became like God, in the sense that she knew the difference between good and evil. The next thing that I found interesting was that before learning the difference between good and evil, Eve (and Adam, for that matter) supposedly had no idea that not following instructions might be “bad,” so that they were in a catch-22 situation. Lastly, it appears that this is following the standard model of male-dominated religions – blaming the “creation of evil" on women.

Comments?
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Postby BecauseHeLives » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:25 am

I'll take a shot at it...

First off, I really dislike when people quote from a version of the bible other than the KJV. The translations of the KJV is very accurate. Other translations are just not up to par. I'm not saying the translations in the verses you are quoting are incorrect but many other verses are.

Well, let’s look at this famous passage for problems! First off, the serpent tells Eve the truth – she didn’t die, and she became like God, in the sense that she knew the difference between good and evil.


Wow. I hope you weren't serious there. No way did that make them close to being like God. Adam and Eve now had the knowledge of good and evil but they had NO POWER. Not even close to being a God. Lots of people ask the same question that you are and the following link is what I point them to:

http://www.picturesofsilver.com/abundan ... y03-02.htm

That link gives a very good explanation (that is if you are looking for an explanation instead of looking for an argument).


The next thing that I found interesting was that before learning the difference between good and evil, Eve (and Adam, for that matter) supposedly had no idea that not following instructions might be “bad,” so that they were in a catch-22 situation. Lastly, it appears that this is following the standard model of male-dominated religions – blaming the “creation of evil" on women.


Nope. Eve was deceived. Adam was disobedient. Both were equally at fault if not Adam even moreso. Evil already existed in Satan. Adam and Eve's actions only revealed it.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:09 pm

BecauseHeLives wrote:I'll take a shot at it...

First off, I really dislike when people quote from a version of the bible other than the KJV. The translations of the KJV is very accurate. Other translations are just not up to par. I'm not saying the translations in the verses you are quoting are incorrect but many other verses are.

An interesting place to start. So let's get this really rolling here. I forgot to mention in my initial post that I will be using the New Revised Standard Version for this project. I consider it superior to the 1611 work because it revises the older work with more modern phrasing and is built using earlier manuscripts, including the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Remember, we're talking about translations from ancient languages that are fundamentally different from English... there is no way to easily translate, so great care is needed regardless of which version you look at. I try to be mindful of translation problems when they occur. If you ever do see a word or phrase you find questionable, I'll be happy to do research and discuss the issue.

Well, let’s look at this famous passage for problems! First off, the serpent tells Eve the truth – she didn’t die, and she became like God, in the sense that she knew the difference between good and evil.


Wow. I hope you weren't serious there. No way did that make them close to being like God.


I hope you noted that I restricted my comment to this one sense. I didn't try to imply that eating a forbidden magical fruit imparted any special supernatural power. But -- I think it's a pretty cool "power" to be able to discern moral issues. It may not be a unique ability in the animal kingdom, but it certainly is a helpful thing when it comes to building a civilization.
Lots of people ask the same question that you are and the following link is what I point them to:

http://www.picturesofsilver.com/abundan ... y03-02.htm

That link gives a very good explanation (that is if you are looking for an explanation instead of looking for an argument).

I'll have a look. Thanks.
Nope. Eve was deceived. Adam was disobedient. Both were equally at fault if not Adam even moreso. Evil already existed in Satan. Adam and Eve's actions only revealed it.

Hm. but the main point here is that before partaking, if the story line is to be believed, they had no idea that following instructions was "wrong." That knowledge was imparted only after they ate. It still looks pretty unfair to me.
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Postby RebelSnake » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:54 pm

I have to disagree with you on one point here SF. Adam and Eve did know that not following instructions was bad because god told them they would die if they didn't. The fact that they didn't die is irrelevant.

Eve was deceived. Adam was disobedient. Both were equally at fault if not Adam even moreso


So, what you're saying here is all of mankind is doomed to eternal torment because Eve allowed herself to be deceived by the father of all lies himself, undoubtedly the most devious being in existance. And let's not forget, this is also the very first mistake of her entire existance. And what is Adam supposed to think when Eve tells him she has eatten from that tree and she's still alive? He's operating on the evidence of his senses. Where's the justice in all this?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:03 pm

RebelSnake wrote:I have to disagree with you on one point here SF. Adam and Eve did know that not following instructions was bad because god told them they would die if they didn't. The fact that they didn't die is irrelevant.

How do you imagine that a pair of immortal beings who were living in a garden without death would view death? Wouldn't that sort of be like telling a 3 year old "Don't visit a prostitute, or you'll get the clap"?
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Postby RebelSnake » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:11 pm

How do you imagine that a pair of immortal beings who were living in a garden without death would view death?


That's an easy one SF. The same reason Adam knew how to till and keep the garden. The same reason they knew how to communicate and interact with each other without any prior experience,knowledge,or language for that matter. They were created with the knowledge already implanted.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:40 pm

RebelSnake wrote:That's an easy one SF. The same reason Adam knew how to till and keep the garden. The same reason they knew how to communicate and interact with each other without any prior experience, knowledge,or language for that matter. They were created with the knowledge already implanted.

So -- if they already knew that something was "wrong," why forbid them to eat a fruit that would tell them something they already knew?
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Postby RebelSnake » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:50 pm

Hey, how should I know? I didn't write it. :mrgreen:
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