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Christianity and the Police State

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:48 pm

First, a couple of quotes from a book that is highly regarded (for reasons that have little to do with its actual contents) by an awful lot of people:
1 Pet 2:13,14 - For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.

Rom 13:1-4 - Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer.

You hear a lot of talk like this these days, from supporters of the Bush administration. When the news came out that President Bush had authorized wiretaps of US citizens by the NSA without bothering to get those pansy old warrants, there was a lot of consternation all around. After all, this certainly looked like a breach of the law, and having a President that breaks the law is a no-no. At least, you'd tend to think so...

But what I found most significant in all the defenses that came out was the ones based on the Biblical premises listed above. "So what if I get wiretapped?" some folks say. "I only talk on the phone about legal things, so I have nothing to fear!" Never mind that past presidents have been known to target political enemies for wiretapping, in order to "dig up dirt" on those enemies. Never mind that law enforcement spies have been known to target anti-war groups. Never mind an awful lot of things.

This sort of attitude is one of the things that reminds me that the Christian religion is a perfectly-honed tool for keeping the masses in their place and those in power in their positions of privilege. This was originally a religion born among the poor and barely literate of the Middle East. Even Paul, the central figure of the church's early changes toward universalism, had a pretty tenuous, quirky grasp of logic, philosophy and human psychology. But all of that changed forever when in the 4th Century, the emperor Constantine figured out that this religion would work well to help him hold his struggling empire together. He claimed that he had a dream that told him he would conquer if he put crosses on his soldiers' shields, and the rest of European history has been centered on the relationship between the Christian church and the state.

With quotes like the ones above, it must have been dead easy for the priests to convince peasants that no matter what their kings did, God approved of it. Today, we see a President, who has sworn twice in public to defend the Constitution, being defended in ignoring that constitution using these same arguments.

But these folks seem to be completely missing the point. America was the first country to build upon the idea that we would be a nation governed primarily by laws, and that every member of the society, rich or poor, powerful or insignificant, would be equally subject to those laws. We wanted no truck with that Napoleonic BS of "L'etat, c'est moi!" Yet here we are, over 2 centuries later with a president that appears to think he has the right to destroy the Constitution in order to save it. And we have a veritable army of people in this country who think the he was placed in the White House by divine providence, and therefore is doing God's will, no matter what the details might be.

There's mortal danger in this situation, folks. The Roman Empire was born on top of the moldering carcass of the Roman Republic, at least in part because of the weakness of the people in the Senate in dealing with the likes of Julius and Augustus. History might not actually repeat itself, but it does have an annoying way of rhyming an awful lot of the time.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:33 pm

Matt wrote:
SouthernFriedInfidel wrote: .... and the rest of European history has been centered on the relationship between the Christian church and the state.


What do you base this on?

The fact that the Roman church exercised so much power that several countries ended up creating their own national churches. Then there was the French Revolution, which had an awful lot of church business involved.

The fact that even to this day, nearly all states have "official" state churches is an important point to remember; even if those churches are withering and losing political relevance, they still represent significant portions of the overall picture.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:37 pm

Matt wrote:I don't know... sounds like a bunch of gleened opinion and not much fact.

Which part? Or parts??
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:29 pm

Matt wrote:
The fact that even to this day, nearly all states have "official" state churches is an important point to remember; even if those churches are withering and losing political relevance, they still represent significant portions of the overall picture.


Is there a list?

You know, I'm glad you asked. The most recent info is pretty interesting:
Wikipedia
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:00 pm

Matt wrote:wikipedia.org is a nice but dangerous little website. Anyone can edit it.


Do you see a reason to doubt the info on the link I gave?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:54 pm

Matt wrote:it's a nice listing but says nothing about political influence.

Well, you asked for a list, and that's what you got. To determine the political influence in each nation, you'd have to read their newspapers. I read BBC and The Guardian on line, and they give pretty good coverage for Europe.

But that's hardly the point of the thread, you know. This is about Christianity as a prop for all governments, including police states and dictatorships. Any comments in that direction?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:59 am

Matt wrote:
SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:This is about Christianity as a prop for all governments, including police states and dictatorships. Any comments in that direction?


SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:With quotes like the ones above, it must have been dead easy for the priests to convince peasants that no matter what their kings did, God approved of it. Today, we see a President, who has sworn twice in public to defend the Constitution, being defended in ignoring that constitution using these same arguments.


One said they did it for God. One said they did it for the good of the Constitution.

Maybe I'm dense but I don't see the connection.


The point is that the Bible instructs the Christian community to obey the government, regardless of what it does, on the grounds that God purposely allowed those governments to exist.

Those original quotes do sound a little strange, don't they? I mean, coming from a person who supposedly was imprisoned by the government. Ironic, if true.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:06 pm

Matt wrote:
SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:The point is that the Bible instructs the Christian community to obey the government, regardless of what it does, on the grounds that God purposely allowed those governments to exist.


You going on the assumption that all leaders are evil.

Where did you get that idea? I assume (and I think it's one that everyone can get behind) that all leaders have the potential to be evil. This is why we have a constitution -- to define roles and to limit the power given to any person, party or branch of government.

But it all counts for nothing if the people insist on ignoring misconduct by the politicians that are elected. That gives them unlimited power, and there is grave danger in giving a power-seeking personality such a present.
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Postby Jovick » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:18 pm

The point is that the Bible instructs the Christian community to obey the government, regardless of what it does, on the grounds that God purposely allowed those governments to exist.


That's an incomplete assumption, therefore, its false. Christians are to obey those in authority AS LONG as it does NOT go against the Word of God. God's Word is the trump in this situation. Also, to imply that God agrees with everything your authority is doing is incorrect.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:58 pm

Jovick wrote:
The point is that the Bible instructs the Christian community to obey the government, regardless of what it does, on the grounds that God purposely allowed those governments to exist.


That's an incomplete assumption, therefore, its false. Christians are to obey those in authority AS LONG as it does NOT go against the Word of God. God's Word is the trump in this situation. Also, to imply that God agrees with everything your authority is doing is incorrect.

So you disagree with what the quote from Romans 13 said? Where is the proviso giving permission to set it aside?
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Postby Jovick » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:16 pm

5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Its pretty obvious from this passage that we obey God's Word over autority when the two disagree.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:39 pm

Jovick wrote:5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Its pretty obvious from this passage that we obey God's Word over autority when the two disagree.


This is from Acts, correct? One wonders why Peter failed to place this concept in his letter, eh? Or to be a little more precise, I was looking for immediate context to the two quotes I provided that add this provision you claim. Looking for context to support your claim in seperate books is shoddy scolarship at best. Acts was traditionally supposed to have been written by Luke. Romans by Paul, 1 Peter by {guess who}

Once again, I guess that the Bible contradicts itself... one guy saying it's OK to disobey the government when it's wrong (a bit I agree with) and two guys saying thay God uses governments as its puppets, so you have to obey them as God's proxies.

Does this pretty much sum up the situation?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:42 pm

Matt wrote:I don't know chapter and verse, but it reminds me of a passage where Jesus said something like: "The old way was an eye-for-an-eye. I give you a new way to turn the other cheek."

I guess the Bible evolved a bit. :lol:

Yes, the moral teachings of the Bible make a very interesting study. In fact, you can almost trace the growth of a more civil, benign morality over time if you read the books in the order in which they were written. Pretty cool stuff, indeed.
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