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Does God love abortions?

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:41 pm

I have a question about a touchy subject: abortion. I recently explained what I see as the theology behind the issue here (http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/abortpuzzle.html) The thing is, I have a hard time wrapping my wits around the way so many (though not all!) religious people are so dead set against this procedure. You may find this hard to believe, and I think I understand that. So I'll explain.

Let's start with a surprising item. "The Purpose Driven Life." It's a wildly popular book in certain religious circles. As in the circles that generally support televangelists and put weird-ass bumper stickers on their cars that say things like "I was dead once. I didn't like it." Let's face it. There's a LOT of these folks around. Funny thing is, nearly every one of them is against allowing women to make the choice of whether or not to end their pregnancies.

Side note here: I saw a bumper sticker here at work, that said "If Mary had been pro-choice, we wouldn't have Christmas." Apparent underlying assumption: everyone who says they're pro-choice would choose to have abortions at all times. This is a rock-stupid assumption. End of digression.

Getting back to the "pro-life," "Purpose-Driven Life" crowd. As a favor to a friend, I made the effort to read every last word of this book. I can save you a little scratch if you like. The book says that God is omnipotent and omniscient (hardly surprising) and that as a consequence, he has planned every event for YOUR life ever since the start of the Universe (also hardly surprising). Interestingly, God appears to have allowed every person the free will to accept or deny this plan he has... which is completely daft. If there is a God and it made arrangements for your natural mommy and natural daddy to (ahem) have sex so that a particular sperm would combine with a particular egg to form YOU (this is pretty much exactly the way the book puts this concept) then YOUR PARENTS HAD NO FREE WILL IN THEIR SEX. OK?

But there's a logical corrolary to this idea. If there's no free will, why does a single fan of this dolt think God doesn't like abortions? If I understand the story so far, God apparently spends a fair whack of his time getting men and women to combine PARTICULAR sperm and PARTICULAR eggs, knowing IN ADVANCE they will be aborted. Looking at the figures, God logically ought to be seen by the "omniscient/ omnipotent" crowd as a big fan of abortion. But they don't seem to recognize that fact, and I find that puzzling.

Maybe these folks have no real use for logic. That would be okay, I guess. Except that they seem to want to put their illogical, contradictory thoughts into law. As any lawyer can tell you, that's a bad idea, because laws are based on logic. If you put together a bunch of laws without using logic, I would think there was a danger of making some truly stupid combinations. I'm not talking about laws like "it's illegal to hunt whales in Utah." More like "you can have freedom of religion, so long as it's some version of the Christian religion." Don't laugh, those of you who like logic. I've had a Christian friend tell me EXACTLY that only a few years ago.

Well, getting back to the main subject, I guess putting it in a nutshell, you can say that religion-based objections to reproductive liberty just don't make any sense to me. So far as I can tell, there's no real reason to restrict this decision making, or to impose a government-mandated decision. In the end, it appears to me to be a matter of busybodies wishing to exert control over the lives of all women and force them to carry to term their pregnancies, regardless of the situation. For whatever reason they have this desire, I think it's wrong-headed. I hope one day, these people will outgrow their desire to control things that they have no business controlling and get real lives for themselves. I should live so bloody long...
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Postby Sanjuro » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:54 pm

hold on a sec... gotta get the pop-corn...
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:58 pm

Sanjuro wrote:hold on a sec... gotta get the pop-corn...


Won't be any fireworks if folks won't read past the first sentence. :?
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Postby RebelSnake » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:21 pm

This is an area I find myself having to rethink my position on. I have no problem with the so-called morning after pill, flushing everything away nice and neat. But I find late term abortions abominable and best described as murder. I was going to expand on this a little bit but I'm drawing a blank right now.
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Postby Jovick » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:17 pm

Matt wrote:what the heck is the actual question here? Does God love the act of abortion? Does God love the babies/fetuses/whatever that were aborted?

If the latter, then God is said to love everyone.

If the former, well that's a pretty stupid question. I'm pretty sure even the most rabid pro-choice supporter does not "love" the experience a woman must go through to have an abortion.


That's actually a pretty good answer.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:07 am

RebelSnake wrote:This is an area I find myself having to rethink my position on. I have no problem with the so-called morning after pill, flushing everything away nice and neat. But I find late term abortions abominable and best described as murder. I was going to expand on this a little bit but I'm drawing a blank right now.


I feel very much the same myself. I recall that I had no problem at all with any abortion, until that day when I felt my son kicking inside my wife's abdomen. That shifted my thinking quite a bit.

Thing is that late-term abrtions are pretty rare. Nearly all that do take place are done very soon after pregnancy is detected, and in that sort of situation, I think it's by far much better that each family (or woman if she's single) decide for themselves.

There are a lot of other complexities here, ones I might explore later. But I was in this thread only addressing what I see as confused thinking on the part of "pro-life" Christians.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:16 am

Matt wrote:what the heck is the actual question here? Does God love the act of abortion? Does God love the babies/fetuses/whatever that were aborted?

If the latter, then God is said to love everyone.

If the former, well that's a pretty stupid question. I'm pretty sure even the most rabid pro-choice supporter does not "love" the experience a woman must go through to have an abortion.


Good evening, Matt. I haven't had much chance to interact with you since joining in here. But I have been looking forward to the oppotunity.

The actual point that I was trying to get across might not apply to Catholics. I'm not sure what the official line from Rome is regarding the souls of infants since they decided there is no Limbo any more.

But around where I live, Catholics are a bit of a minority; and virtually all Protestants I've talked with have this thing about predestination, and about babies' souls getting an automatic pass to heaven. I was merely pointing out that putting all that together in (perhaps) a novel yet totally valid manner might show some folks who think along those lines that their view have some serious internal flaws.

Natually, I put in some insults, but I tried to direct them at people who are total whack jobs of the religious world. So far, you don't seem to be such a person. But if you feel offended by anything I've said, I do apologize.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:31 am

Matt wrote:I guess what I need to ask of you is to be more specific and to-the-point as to what your inquiry is.

Yes I'm Catholic...but not hard-core. Some stuff seems odd. Some things about all religion seems odd. Some things seem very right.

I won't point out what I think is odd because Jihad-Jovaholic will twist it later.


I'll say that one of my very best friends these days is a Catholic. He's a member of Knights of Columbus, and he's extremely easy to talk about religion with because he's nothing if not mellow.

So really, I didn't have a query. All of my questions were rhetorical, things for the reader to ponder as he (or she) sees fit. Or respond to if thinking on such things out loud seems most appropriate.

Cheers!
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