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Does religion make you "good"?

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:54 am

Here's a question that few people seem to consider: Why do so many folks assume that religious people are automatically trustworthy? Or perhaps we could ask the question on the flip side: Why is it common to automatically suspect someone who isn't religious?

Oh, I have a good idea how some folks think. They like to identify fellow members of their community using religion. This is why, when you go up to the mountains of North Carolina, you'll stop in at many places of business and find stacks of directories, all listing local businesses that are run by Christians. People just assume that if a roofer or plasterer has a little fish in their ad, they are more trustworthy than some guy with a foreign-sounding name who's been in business for twenty years.

But what gets me is how people can be so blind to the obvious problems with this sort of prejudice. If you say "He's a Christian," I expect most Christians will create in their minds some sort of image of the ideal Christian. You know... follower of Christ, sort of like one of the Twelve Disciples or something. But let's be realistic here. Think back to all the people in history (or even the last century) who have called themselves "Christian." We're talking a pretty wide range here, folks. Everything from C.S. Lewis and Dietrich Bonhoeffer to Charles Manson and Jim Jones. Desmond Tutu to Pat Robertson. Oy vey.

It gets worse when you give a person who has "deep religious convictions" a positive response. Then you can range from Gandhi to Bin Laden.

The main thing to remember here is that in the real world, you can't assume that "religion" will automatically make any particular stranger more trustworthy than any other. You can't assume that she or he will be "on the same page" as you are, ethically speaking. I guess it all comes down to one of my pet peeves: prejudice. Once we recognize the value of our assumptions of what religion or lack of it will mean about a person before getting to know her or him, then we can put them into proper perspective. I think that will remove one serious obstacle to true civilization.
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Postby Sanjuro » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:41 pm

Oy vey, indeed.

Often I have found that people who advertise their religious beliefs tend to be the more left wing or 'wacko' (thats the scientific term :lol: ) of their faith. The ones that are moderate 'live and let live' types are the ones that don't overtly advertise the fact they are religious.

You have to admit that in the south, it is a great marketing tool, and church is a wonderful place to get the word out about your product/service.
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Postby RebelSnake » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:42 pm

I'm reminded of an old sports quote that fits here pretty good. Religion doesn't build character. It reveals it. Religion can't take an inherently bad person and transform him into a saint.
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Postby Liv » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:45 pm

It's the "us, versus the unsaved" mentality that most non-believers, (and other religious believers) have a difficulty with. It's the inability for many Christians to accept diversity that makes their own message hypocritical.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:24 pm

Liv wrote:It's the "us, versus the unsaved" mentality that most non-believers, (and other religious believers) have a difficulty with. It's the inability for many Christians to accept diversity that makes their own message hypocritical.

I can see where the siege mentality that this looks like might have been useful -- back when Christians really were under siege by the society they started off in. But one would have thought that would have fallen by the wayside as they gained and maintained their ascendency 1300 years ago.
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Postby Sanjuro » Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:57 pm

I for one would really like to hear a moderate christian's view on this.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:18 pm

Sanjuro wrote:I for one would really like to hear a moderate christian's view on this.


Bloody well TRY to find one, first...
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:40 pm

Matt wrote:But I think it can also hurt those that don't think for themselves. These are the people not comfortable with the unknown. They must have right or wrong, up or down, black or white. They panic when situations are not absolute. These people use religion as a sort of drug addiction because they are afraid to think for themselves.


This, of course, leads to greater questions. As Gandhi said, what is possible for one should be possible for all. Many folks are capable of thinking for themselves. Personally, I'd feel naked if I wasn't doing so at all times. Why, then, is independence of thought such a hurdle for so many people?

I have a feeling that most organized religions are built up by (in part at least) stifling this ability to think for oneself. Simple observation shows that an awful lot of the "mainline" churches overtly value sheep-like, even child-like attitudes in their membership. That is something that really sets my teeth on edge.

But perhaps that would be a better subject for another thread...
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Postby Sanjuro » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:07 pm

Matt wrote:These people use religion as a sort of drug addiction because they are afraid to think for themselves


As a side note, this is something I have been thinking for a while. Only not so much for those who are afraid to think for themselves. Rather, it is interesting to me how many addictive personalities go into this all-out evangelical mode. They may leave the addiction to drugs or alcohol behind, but they take on a whole new addiction in religion and focus ALL their energy on it.

Anybody else ever noticed that former addicts (if they 'find religion', tend to be really overzealous about it?
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Postby Jovick » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:10 pm

RebelSnake wrote:I'm reminded of an old sports quote that fits here pretty good. Religion doesn't build character. It reveals it. Religion can't take an inherently bad person and transform him into a saint.


Very true. Only Jesus Christ can transform a person.
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Postby Sanjuro » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:14 pm

Hey, Jovick's back.
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Postby RebelSnake » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:47 pm

Quote:
I think we're all (well the majority of us anyway) wired to know what is right and what is wrong.


That is false Christian doctrine. The bible teaches no such thing. If we knew what was right and wrong then we wouldn't have needed the 10 commandments.


In this case false christian doctrine equals common sense. We don't need a couple of stone tablets to tell us killing people may not be a good idea.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:15 pm

RebelSnake wrote:We don't need a couple of stone tablets to tell us killing people may not be a good idea.


Very true. We already went over that in another thread last week. Jovick never responded to my presentation on how it is possible to rationally develop rules for a society. Hopefully, he'll read it and respond as needed.
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Postby MooseontheLoose » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:46 am

Maybe this will answer your questions on the whole good thing

Roman 3

3:9 What then? Are we better off? Certainly not, for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin, 3:10 just as it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one,

3:11 there is no one who understands,

there is no one who seeks God.

3:12 All have turned away,

together they have become worthless;

there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.

3:13 “Their throats are open graves,

they deceive with their tongues,

the poison of asps is under their lips.

3:14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.

3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,

3:16 ruin and misery are in their paths,

3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.

3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:03 am

MooseontheLoose wrote:Maybe this will answer your questions on the whole good thing


Care to explain? Yeah, I've read the whole Bible, including the stuff that was removed from the Catholic version. My question was ... do the prejudices enshrined in it coincide with reality? I have my doubts, based on real life experiences.
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Postby RebelSnake » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:26 pm

Romans doesn't seem to have a very high opinion of people does it? But then the entire bible is pretty much the same way.

[/quote]
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Postby MooseontheLoose » Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:00 am

The thing that really amazes me is athiest spend more time in Gods word than alot of christians HMMMM, Why would you reference a book that you argue against? Why not write a new book Yea thats it a new book!
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