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Religion is used to foul up Democracy

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:54 am

Many times, I wonder just how stupid the average American voter is. Mind you, the average American voter is not to be confused with the average American citizen or the average American taxpayer. After all, only about 70% of those eligible to vote are even registered. In years like 2005, when virtually no important government positions are up for a vote, only about 30% to 40% of those bother to go out, at best. In presidential elections, you get maybe 60% to 70% of registered voters out, but you're still looking at around 50% of actually eligible voters taking part in the process. And that's a "best case" scenario.

But numbers aside, just look at how people like Karl Rove and Dick Cheney play the American public like a banjo at the Fiddler's Convention. Here we are, in the middle of a war that we started. We're holding prisoners in secret prisons, away from all public view and handing some over to other countries to be worked over in ways even we don't have the stomach for... and they manage to get elected by talking about gay marriage.

Abraham Lincoln once said "...you can't fool all of the people all of the time." The problem here is that under our system of government, you don't need to even bother to try that. All you need to do is fool 51% of the voters every other year. And at the moment, the best way to fool the voters of America -- about 51% or so, at least -- is with religion.

Abortion rights is a good, strong place for religious vote mining. Talk to people about the subject in terms of "murdering babies" and you'll get hackles raised. Forget the fact that the vast majority of abortions (90%, according to one count) take place before a fetus has developed enough of a nervous system to be said to have a sense of feel. Forget the fact that nature already kills most embryos before their presence can even be detected. And just forget that abortions have legally been performed in America for over a century (the first laws regarding the concept appeared in the 1820's). No, letting a pregnant woman make the choice is "murder." And centering attention on this concept can give a person a ride into public office.

Gay issues are another gold mine for people keen on getting elected. Just tell people that you don't want to give homosexual "deviants" special treatment, and you have guaranteed support from an awful lot of church-going, Leviticus-quoting people all across the country. You could be the worst sort of sexual predator, a bank robber, or murderer. But if you tell folks you want to keep a couple of women from getting married, you'll get support and endorsements.

The thing that scares me about this is that the whole situation reminds me an awful lot of the days leading up to the Nazi takeover of Germany in 1933. Hitler and his party were big on blaming the Jews for the nation's problems. This was just fine with the Catholic and Lutheran churches -- they had been busy demonizing the Jews for centuries. The churches got onto the Nazi bandwagon, looking for political influence from what they perceived as a friend of theirs. Unfortunately for them and the rest of the world, they got a bit more than they bargained for.

Could the churches that are supporting the "neo-con" agenda be on the verge of a similar error? I've looked at the web site for the Project for a New American Century. It reads like a "Mein Kampf" -- only without the hatred of Jews. It is still a manifesto for American control of the world. And it was initially signed by a who's who of the current administration.

In 1991, when George H.W. Bush invaded Iraq, he raised quite a few eyebrows by talking of a "New World Order." Up to that point, Christian conservatives had been adamantly opposed to anything that smacked of a world government. There were a few who shied away from their good buddy in the White House over this concept. But they got over that unease pretty quickly, because after all, if there were a world government that was run by the U.S. of A. that would be a different matter completely.

Now you have people in the government talking about Crusades, putting our wars in terms of Right and Justice, Good versus EVIL. And the religious crowd laps it up, ignorant of the danger just over the horizon. When the danger becomes apparent to the average American voter, it may be too late to correct the problem.
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Postby Sanjuro » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:23 pm

All very good points. Thanks for the write up SouthernFriedInfidel.

There is a very good book out there right now on this subject by Kevin Phillips-former Nixon aide (His 1969 book The Emerging Republican Majority was hailed as a visionary work of political analysis):

"American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21st Century."

Not a light read, this man has done his homework and traces a real history of religion in America. If for no other reason than that, this book is more than worth picking up.

An Exerpt from the preface that applies to another thread in this forum:

"Conservative true believers will scoff: the United States is sui generis, they say, a unique and chosen nation. What did or did not happen to Rome, imperial Spain, the Dutch Republic, and Britain is irrelevant. The catch here, alas, is that these nations also thought they were unique and that God was on their side. The revelation that He was apparently not added a further debilitating note to the later stages of each national decline. Perhaps the warfare, earthquakes, plagues, and turmoil of the early twenty-first century are unprecedented, but the religious believers of yesteryear also saw millennial signs in flood, plagues, famines, comets, and Mongol and Turkish invasions"
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:40 pm

Sanjuro wrote:All very good points. Thanks for the write up SouthernFriedInfidel.

Always a pleasure...

There is a very good book out there right now on this subject by Kevin Phillips


Sheesh. Every time I see or hear that name, I think of the Monty Python sketch "Election Night" and the Slightly Silly Party candidate Kevin Phillips Bong.

Sorry for the digression. :oops:

"American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21st Century."

Not a light read, this man has done his homework and traces a real history of religion in America.


Oh man... I've been wanting to read this one. Maybe I'll drop by Barnes & Nobel this weekend. Nah... I gotta get through "The Mighty and the Almighty" first.

Great quote, BTW. Danke!
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:29 pm

Jovick wrote:I've got a good book for you to read. Its called the Holy Bible. I hear the King James Version is absolutely fantastic. The trick to this book though is that its hard to understand all there is until you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you.

Enjoy!


Uh yeah, I done read it. And even when you believe you have your supernatural reading assistant, you still can't properly understand it. Just ask any professor at a seminary.
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Postby RebelSnake » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:56 pm

I've got a good book for you to read. Its called the Holy Bible.


No thanks. Too much sex and violence.
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Postby Sanjuro » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:29 pm

Jovick wrote:
Uh yeah, I done read it. And even when you believe you have your supernatural reading assistant, you still can't properly understand it. Just ask any professor at a seminary.


Did you study the bible or did you just read it? Did you ALLOW the Holy Spirit to guide you or did you think you were smart enough to figure it out on your own?


Translation: Did you read and study the bible, or did you allow what you read to be rearranged and misinterpreted by what your ego WANTED you to believe about what you read?

Why is it when confronted by something the bible actually says that doesn't fit the mold christians have made for themselves, someone's quick to jump up and say, "Oh, you just didn't GET it!" Well it cuts both ways laddy, perhaps all that genesis nonsense is something YOU didn't "get".
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Postby Jovick » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:34 pm

BTW... Sanjuro. God loves you and He doesn't love me any more than He love you.
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Postby Sanjuro » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:56 pm

Jovick wrote:
This is a responce I would expect to come from an "open-minded" atheist. Its easy for you to dispense advice but when it comes back to you its hard for you to swallow.


You don't know how happy I am that you expected me to respond to your presumption and manifested warped view of reality with logic and fact.

Fact. There are the words and stories that are written in the bible.
Fact. Its says one thing.
Fact. You 'believe' (operable word) it means something other than it says because some invisible force 'guides' you to believe it.

That is illogical. I only take advice when it is REAL and dispensed in real world application. Not fairy tales. Why is it so hard for you to seperate fantasy from reality?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:59 pm

Jovick wrote:Did you study the bible or did you just read it? Did you ALLOW the Holy Spirit to guide you or did you think you were smart enough to figure it out on your own?


Well, now. I have studied the Bible, though not in the sense you appear to use. I have read commentaries, both by religious and secular scholars. I've checked into the original languages and the concordances for them that are available on-line. Lots of interesting things to be learned in those ways, I'll tell you.

I've also read a lot regarding archeological finds in the Middle East. A LOT of stuff that puts the Bible into whole new contexts, and supports my belief that it is nothing more than just another collection of myths gathered together by Jewish priests for the purpose of humbugging the peasants they leeched off of.

Yeah, I think I'm smart enough to figure that much out, based on my studies. Why?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:25 pm

Jovick wrote:SouthernFriedInfidel...In your Bio you profess to have attended church for quite a number of years. Did you ever ALLOW the Holy Spirit to guide your reading?


You must remember... I am an atheist. Asking me that question is like asking you if you ever truthfully told Santa about all your toy requests. I'm not trying to mock you here -- I'm trying to get across to you how nonsensical your question is.

While I believed, I believed I truly was guided by the Holy Ghost in my daily Bible readings. Today, I have no belief in the reality of any of the Christian myths, be they God, Jesus, angels, Satan... you name it. I hope this clarifies the matter a little.
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Postby Sanjuro » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:40 pm

Jovick wrote:Ok Mr Spock.... :) So if you don't understand the advice you are hesitant to take it? Is it not possible that you are the one that is in the fantasy world and I am the one representing reality? Maybe that's illogical in a fantasy world.


Again, I ask to back up that up with actual proof and I will jump right on board! All I ask is there to be something beyond the intangible. Feelings, the unknown, and fear do not a god prove.
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Postby Sanjuro » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:42 pm

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:You must remember... I am an atheist. Asking me that question is like asking you if you ever truthfully told Santa about all your toy requests.


N-no S-S-Santa??? :cry:
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:03 pm

Jovick wrote:I'm truly sorry to hear that.


Huh. I hear that a lot. I have no idea why, though. On the whole, I find life without religion a lot happier than it was with. :wink:

Can I ask the church affiliation you used to have?

I was a member of the Southern Baptists for around 20 years. FWIW :roll:
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:05 pm

Sanjuro wrote:
SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:You must remember... I am an atheist. Asking me that question is like asking you if you ever truthfully told Santa about all your toy requests.


N-no S-S-Santa??? :cry:


Maybe I should have made that little revelation a private message... :mrgreen:
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Postby RebelSnake » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:29 pm

Jovick wrote:
Is it not possible that you are the one that is in the fantasy world and I am the one representing reality?


On the day you can provide absolute proof of the afterlife and the supernatural I will listen to everything you say. Until then, you're whistlin' in the wind.
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Postby RebelSnake » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:23 pm

Jovick wrote:

If you require proof for everthing then you can not accept "Beauty", "Art" or anything else aesthetic as being anything other than fantasy.


Hunh??
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:35 pm

Jovick wrote:
Again, I ask to back up that up with actual proof and I will jump right on board! All I ask is there to be something beyond the intangible. Feelings, the unknown, and fear do not a god prove.


If you require proof for everthing then you can not accept "Beauty", "Art" or anything else aesthetic as being anything other than fantasy.


Um... you really ought to be aware that beauty, art and what-not are all subjective things. That's not related to the question of establishing the truth of claims of existence. For those, evidence to support belief should indeed be required.
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Postby Sanjuro » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:02 pm

Jovick wrote:Aesthetics is similar to the metaphysics of experience


In that its subjective based on the person's own desires and brain then yes. Those that don't believe beauty is subjective chemical response need to meet some of my ex-girlfriends. LOL
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