The Death Penalty

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

Had a hard time deciding where to put this -- philosophy, science or government? Most likely, I chose wrong by figuring this all starts with science. Sue me.

Apparently, a series of studies show that the death penalty deters capital crimes. Seems a bit dodgy to me, but I haven't actually seen the data or methods of getting at these conclusions.

But beyond the questions of data gathering and analysis, we have to wonder -- is the deterrent factor the most important issue here?

[BecauseHeLives]

I don't think the death penalty deters capital crimes at all. I think most crimes are committed with the criminal figuring they won't get caught or can get out of it. In crimes of passion the consequences don't weigh into the actions at all.

I use to be VERY strongly against capital punishment for most of my life mainly because I felt that state-sponsered pre-meditated killing sent a terrible message to our youth. I don't feel as strongly that way now. I lean more to the thinking that people must be held accountable and responsible for their actions.

Yeah... you can say I ride the fence on this issue.

[Questioner]

I don't think the death penalty deters capital crimes at all...Yeah... you can say I ride the fence on this issue.

This is such an emotional issue. When I hear of vile, terrible crimes, my gut reaction is always that guy should be executed. But when I use my logic, I realize that like hitting children, capital punishment costs us more than it is worth, financially, morally, spiritually and emotionally.

Michigan has no capital punishment, but they do have a sentence for horrific crimes of "life without any possibility of parole", and by golly they wrote that law so that the ONLY way the person so sentenced can ever get out is through gubernatorial (or presidential) pardon. The serial killer, John Normal Collins got it. As did some others. To date, there has never been one of those people released. They are not allowed to ever come before the parole board. There is no such thing as "time off for good behavior". This is a true "lock them up and throw away the key" kind of law, and it works. It doesn't drag out the thing for years and years for the victim's family. The victim's family NEVER has to worry about having to go before a parole board to argue that their loved one's killer should stay behind bars.

I think it is more humane to victims' families, and to the people of the State. Should one of these prisoners ever be exonerated via DNA or other evidence, then the Governor (or U.S. President) could always pardon that person. So you don't have a dead person who might have been innocent. I wish all States would adopt this law and do away with capital punishment.

[A Person]

Unfortunately this is one of those things which is almost impossible to confirm. There are simply too many variables. However it is very clear that countries with the death penalty have more murders than those without.

In 2006, 91 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan and the USA. Good company to be keeping?

In Canada before abolition (1979) the murder rate was 3.09/100,000 it's now 1.5 - compared with 4.2 for the US.

Average murder rate per 100,000 in 2005.

#1   Colombia: 61.7847
#2   South Africa: 49.6008
#3   Jamaica: 32.4196
#4   Venezuela: 31.6138
#5   Russia: 20.1534
#6   Mexico: 13.0213
#7   Estonia: 10.7277
#8   Latvia: 10.393
#9   Lithuania: 10.2863
#10   Belarus: 9.83495
#11   Ukraine: 9.4006
#12   Papua New Guinea: 8.38593
#13   Kyrgyzstan: 8.02565
#14   Thailand: 8.00798
#15   Moldova: 7.81145
#16   Zimbabwe: 7.49938
#17   Seychelles: 7.39025
#18   Zambia: 7.0769
#19   Costa Rica: 6.1006
#20   Poland: 5.62789
#21   Georgia: 5.11011
#22   Uruguay: 4.5082
#23   Bulgaria: 4.45638
#24   United States: 4.2802
#25   Armenia: 4.25746
#26   India: 3.44083
#27   Yemen: 3.36276
#28   Dominica: 2.89733
#29   Azerbaijan: 2.85642
#30   Finland: 2.83362
#31   Slovakia: 2.63303
#32   Romania: 2.50784
#33   Portugal: 2.33769
#34   Malaysia: 2.30034
#35   Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 2.29829
#36   Mauritius: 2.1121
#37   Hungary: 2.04857
#38   Korea, South: 1.96336
#39   Slovenia: 1.79015
#40   France: 1.73272
#41   Czech Republic: 1.69905
#42   Iceland: 1.68499
#43   Australia: 1.50324
#44   Canada: 1.49063
#45   Chile: 1.4705
#46   United Kingdom: 1.40633
#47   Italy: 1.28393
#48   Spain: 1.22456
#49   Germany: 1.16461
#50   Tunisia: 1.12159
#51   Netherlands: 1.11538
#52   New Zealand: 1.11524
#53   Denmark: 1.06775
#54   Norway: 1.06684
#55   Ireland: 0.94621
#56   Switzerland: 0.92135
#57   Indonesia: 0.91084
#58   Greece: 0.75928
#59   Hong Kong: 0.5508
#60   Japan: 0.49993
#61   Saudi Arabia: 0.39745
#62   Qatar: 0.11586

Unfortunately China, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran and Sudan don't report their murder rates, but a quick scan of the above table suggests no correlation with death penalty.
Take a look at this chart States without the death penalty are consistently in the low ranges for murder, those with the death penalty are the highest.

Now this doesn't prove cause and effect. Maybe if you have a lot of murders you're more likely to approve the death penalty - but if so it seems to do a bad job of deterrence.

[BecauseHeLives]

Now this doesn't prove cause and effect. Maybe if you have a lot of murders you're more likely to approve the death penalty - but if so it seems to do a bad job of deterrence.

I think both of those statements hold true.

[Liv]

Instead of last meals, you should be given one last laugh. Happiness, should be the last right of anyone on death row. Though, if we're to follow our Judeo-Christian values, that republicans insist are a part of American culture, then should we even have a death penalty? Isn't redemption, the right of man?

Of course an optional death sentence, one chosen by choice, like a sacrifice, could remain in place. That would be truly Christian.

[A Person]

For a real Christian a death penalty would be a first class ticket to Heaven, and the Bible is full of death penalties

murder (Exodus 21:12)
kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
bestiality (Exodus 22:19)
adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5)
prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24)
disobedience (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
cursing your parents (Matthew 15:4-7)
not listening to priests (Deuteronomy 17:12)
being a witch (Exodus 22:17)
not being a Jew (Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Deuteronomy 13:7-12 etc)
speaking the lord's name (Leviticus 24:10-16)
fortune telling (Leviticus 20:27)
not being a virgin (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15)
being mortally injured by a woman (Judges 9:52-54)

Of course an optional death sentence, one chosen by choice, like a sacrifice, could remain in place. That would be truly Christian.

For a True Christian, the ultimate sacrifice has already been made by Jesus - and who among us is without sin to cast the first stone? (John 8:7).

But that video clip was disturbing. I would have sung 'always look on the bright side' and then grabbed the shovel while he was distracted. Do not go gentle into that good night.

[Liv]

So Shannon is doing the opening statement for her research and development class on the death penalty, and I helped her throw some footage together. On Google France, I found this footage of a real death penalty execution. Apparently it's from an US Southwest prison, and was part of a documentary "This is America", though it was filmed illegally at the time. I have no idea who this guy is, but we tried to make it as dramatic as possible of course, because the other-side of her class is arguing FOR the death penalty.

Thought I'd share...

[Jamy]

I have a really hard time arguing against the death penalty, in favor of keeping certain criminals in jail for the rest of their lives. "Certain criminals" being folks like Ted Bundy, Charles Ng. John Gacy, Dennis Rader, Richard Ramirez etc. Hell, the state bankrolled Richard Speck's female hormone injections, while he was in prison. We euthanize dangerous dogs, why not euthanize dangerous people?

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

Because we consider people to be more important than other species, and killing humans a far more important event than killing a dog. The death penalty says more about society's character than it does about the society's view of the crime(s) committed.

Sure, the cost of housing and caring for these creeps is high. But at least society can stand up proudly and say "at least WE don't murder helpless prisoners in our power."

[Liv]

Of course the biggest problem is being right. Knowing for sure you're killing the right person. As RTD says, "Dead is Dead", and we've found numerous occasions were innocent men were murdered because we thought they were guilty.

[A Person]

I don't have a problem with executing certain criminals - in theory. Unfortunately in practice is seems that for every Ted Bundy there are 10 Ruben Cantu, Carlos De Luna, David Spence, Larry Griffin, Leo Jones, Jesse Tafero, Ellis Wayne Felker, Joseph O’Dell and Cameron Todd Willingham

Sir William Blackstone penned a maxim: "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". This maxim is still widely taught to lawyers today and has its roots in pre-Christianity,

Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
...
18:32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

Benjamin Franklin said, "it is better one hundred guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"

The death penalty has no effect on crime rates, in almost all civilized countries people have been discovered to have been innocent after execution and have ended capital punishment. In the states it has become a badge of honor for Perry to have executed innocent people - to prove he's 'tough on crime' (see Cameron Todd Willingham). Extreme and unjust penalties do not compensate for a bigoted police force and a emasculated justice system. That's just vigilante mob rule.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

One note on Biblical "justice." According to the Torah, the most Godly form of justice was to punish everyone for the crime of an individual. Obviously, that doesn't sit well with the thinking of modern humans, but it sure explained why natural disasters hurt so many "godly" people.

Hopefully, we'll be able to keep theocrats from getting into power, in order to take the justice system into Biblical standards of right and wrong... we'd REALLY be in trouble then!

[Jamy]

I don't consider people more important than other species. We've done horrific things to this planet and to each other and to every other species. We're the most destructive creatures on the face of this planet.

That said, I agree, I'd rather pay for Charles Ng to stay behind bars for the rest of his life than execute an innocent person.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

I don't consider people more important than other species. We've done horrific things to this planet and to each other and to every other species. We're the most destructive creatures on the face of this planet.

That said, I agree, I'd rather pay for Charles Ng to stay behind bars for the rest of his life than execute an innocent person.

It's only natural to hold a bias toward our own species over others. That doesn't mean that humans are objectively better or anything like that... only that we matter to ourselves.

[Liv]

I would have sung 'always look on the bright side' and then grabbed the shovel while he was distracted.

Was watching an episode of "The Tube" last night (highly recommend) and one of the employees used that line. They're just so effing damn happy those tube workers.