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He that spareth his rod loves his son

by A Person | Published on March 15th, 2008, 11:43 am | Religion
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. -- Proverbs 13:24

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. -- Proverbs 22:15

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. -- Proverbs 23:13-14

Despite this parenting advice from God it's difficult to read the account of Kent Hovind 'lovingly' beating the snot from his son without thinking there is something very very wrong
Kent Hovind wrote:I said, "Son, listen carefully. You know that I love you."
He said, "I know daddy."
I said, "Now son, I told you to sit still. You did not sit still. What happens when you disobey daddy?"
He said, "Sniff, sniff... I get a spanking?"
I said, "Correct, bend over." Boy, did I give him a spanking, and it was a doozy. A few minutes later, smoke was rising off his hind end, tears were coming out of his eyes, and pearls were coming out of his nostrils -- the whole thing.
I said, "Okay son, listen carefully. We are going to go back into the dentist office, and you are going to sit in that chair. If you wiggle one time, I'm not going to yell at you and I'm not going to scream at you. I'm going to calmly take you back out here to the van, and I'm going to give you two spankings just like the one you just received. Then, we are going to go back into the dentist office, and you are going to sit in the chair. If you wiggle, we are going to come back out to the van, and you are going to get three spankings just like the one you just got. Son, we are going to go back and forth all day long until I get tired, and I have played tennis for years. I have a wonderful forehand smash. I don't believe I'll get tired for a long time, son."

Recent studies have confirmed that spanking kids increases the likelihood of them having sexual problems later in life.
Straus analyzed the results of four studies and found that spanking and other corporal punishment by parents is associated with an increased probability of three sexual problems as a teen or adult:

o Verbally and physically coercing a dating partner to have sex.
o Risky sex such as premarital sex without a condom.
o Masochistic sex such as being aroused by being spanked when having sex.

“These results, together with the results of more than 100 other studies, suggest that spanking is one of the roots of relationship violence and mental health problems. Because there is 93 percent agreement between studies that investigated harmful side effects of spanking, and because over 90 percent of U.S. parents spank toddlers, the potential benefits for prevention of sexual and relationship violence is large,” Straus says.

“Furthermore, because other research shows spanking is not more effective than other discipline methods, there is no need to expose children to the harmful effects of spanking. We can help prevent mental health problems and relationship violence from happening by a national health policy recommending never spanking,” he says.


One study involved 14,000 university students in 32 different nations. Among those who were spanked as children, 29% of men and 21% of women "verbally coerced sex" from a partner — defined as insisting on sex when the other person doesn't want to. Among those who were not spanked, the numbers were 1.7% of men and 1.2% of women. That's a whopping difference and maybe explains why so many religious people, presumably beaten biblically as children, have problems as adults.
 
 
BS

You have WAY more sexual perverts today than you did 50 years ago. Spankings were much more prevalent 50 years ago and I thank God that I was spanked as a child when I needed correction
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second,it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
March 15th, 2008, 5:45 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
BecauseHeLives wrote:BS

You have WAY more sexual perverts today than you did 50 years ago. Spankings were much more prevalent 50 years ago and I thank God that I was spanked as a child when I needed correction

He wasn't talking about "perverts," BHL. He was talking about people who don't experience sexual relationships based on love and mutual respect. There is a whole world of difference. I'm sort of surprised you didn't notice that.
March 15th, 2008, 7:37 pm
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SouthernFriedInfidel
 
Location: 5th circle of hell -- actually not very crowded at the moment.
BecauseHeLives wrote:BS

You have WAY more sexual perverts today than you did 50 years ago. Spankings were much more prevalent 50 years ago and I thank God that I was spanked as a child when I needed correction
On what basis do you make that assertion? Paedophiles were very common 50 years ago, I met some of them in the Church and in the Scouts, the difference is that back then children were not encouraged to talk about it. The ones I came into contact with were men of influence and authority. Us kids knew what they were and we made sure we were never alone with them. But none of us said anything. These days children know that if they say something they wont be the ones in trouble. You only have to hear the stories coming to light now about residential schools, church schools and reform schools to know that all that has happened is that these people no longer have a safe refuge.

My parents never beat me and I have never beat my children. I'm not surprised to hear that you were.
March 15th, 2008, 8:07 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
Spankings <> Beatings

You still correct a child according to your knowledge of the child. What works for one won't always work for another. To say that a child should never be spanked is ludicrous and I personally think it leads to a society that like we have today where we have never experienced the disrepect for parents like we have today in America.
March 15th, 2008, 9:24 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
My parents never beat me and I have never beat my children. I'm not surprised to hear that you were.


What is that supposed to mean?
March 15th, 2008, 9:25 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
I ceased this primitive practice once I realized that I could be arrested were I to spank an unwilling adult neighbor or friend. If the act were considered assault against an adult, obviously the same applies to children.
March 15th, 2008, 9:58 pm
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Nfidel
 
BecauseHeLives wrote: To say that a child should never be spanked is ludicrous and I personally think it leads to a society that like we have today where we have never experienced the disrepect for parents like we have today in America.

Obviously my experience must be different to yours. I don't disrespect my parents, my children don't disrespect me. I do disrespect the teachers, scoutmasters and vicars who practiced physical and sexual abuse. Since the 'society we have today' is based on the actions of parents many years ago you would have to look at the incidence of corporal punishment 30 years ago. Which is what this study did. But if you prefer anecdotal hearsay then go ahead, it's still allowed in the US. Just be aware that when you obtain a child's compliance through physical violence you teach the child that physical violence is the way to achieve compliance. Which is the conclusion of this and many other studies. I think there are far more effective ways to educate a child and showing them the consequences of their actions than by physical dominance. It's that authority vs reason thing again. Beating asserts physical authority, reason changes the mindset.

BecauseHeLives wrote:What is that supposed to mean?

What it says. I'm not surprised that you think think corporal punishment is a good thing and that you received it as a child. Or that you 'thank God' for it either. It's what I expected.
March 16th, 2008, 12:40 am
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
BecauseHeLives wrote:BS

You have WAY more sexual perverts today than you did 50 years ago. Spankings were much more prevalent 50 years ago and I thank God that I was spanked as a child when I needed correction


The only difference between now and fifty years ago is victims are not as afraid to speak up now as they were then. Fifty years ago "sexual perverts" were more likely to commit their crimes without fear of getting caught than they are now. Being a victim of a crime is no longer something to be ashamed of.
Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you "choose" to respond to it.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote: If you believe things that are contradicted by the evidence, then you are on a path built on falsehoods.
March 16th, 2008, 6:40 am
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RebelSnake
 
Location: Greensboro
BecauseHeLives wrote:. To say that a child should never be spanked is ludicrous and I personally think it leads to a society that like we have today where we have never experienced the disrepect for parents like we have today in America.

Out of interest I thought I'd mention a country that has implemented such a 'ludicrous' law
Corporal punishment was first banned in the Swedish grammar schools in 1927. Similar legislation was passed for elementary schools in 1958 and banned totally in 1962 in the Education Act. By 1966, parents and those responsible for children were forbidden from hitting their children.[
...
one of the MPs said; “In a free democracy like our own, we use words as arguments, not blows. We talk to people and do not beat them. If we can´t convince our children with words, we shall never convince them with violence”. This has become a rather famous statement in Sweden and one, of which it is not very easy to oppose.

Apparently it easy to oppose if you're American.

How has 40 years of this ludicrous law affected crime and sexual assault? In every area Sweden has lower rates than the US. Perhaps the US needs more 'ludicrous' laws.
March 17th, 2008, 9:23 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
I remember in middle school here in NC the teacher had a paddle the size of a bat, drilled with holes to the "maximum legal specifications"....

I never got it, but several did....

I can't believe stuff like that was legal then.... and we're only talking 15 years ago.
This is our chance to change things, this is our destiny.
March 21st, 2008, 4:53 pm
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Liv
I show you something fantastic and you find fault.
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
BecauseHeLives wrote:BS

You have WAY more sexual perverts today than you did 50 years ago. Spankings were much more prevalent 50 years ago and I thank God that I was spanked as a child when I needed correction



How can you prove that there are way more perverts today??? That is an imbecilic suggestion. Today we have more news coverage of it but thats about it. I bet you think there are more gays today than there were 50 years ago too huh? LOL!


-Reason is the greatest enemy faith has.
March 21st, 2008, 11:33 pm
Mike
 
Mike wrote:
How can you prove that there are way more perverts today??? That is an imbecilic suggestion. Today we have more news coverage of it but thats about it. I bet you think there are more gays today than there were 50 years ago too huh? LOL!


-Reason is the greatest enemy faith has.


How can you prove that there's not more? The population has only has grown, and if half the ridiculous ratio's given out daily are true (Example: 1 out of every 5 people have AIDs!), then they have increased in numbers. :|
Jan 29, 2008: Mark this day.. "ignorance is bliss" and I actually completely agree.. now if you'll excuse me I'm going to hurl myself off the building.- Sanjuro
Consider it marked.
March 23rd, 2008, 4:05 pm
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
Liv wrote:I remember in middle school here in NC the teacher had a paddle the size of a bat, drilled with holes to the "maximum legal specifications"....

I never got it, but several did....

I can't believe stuff like that was legal then.... and we're only talking 15 years ago.


Fifteen years ago?

When one of your kids was in middle school? ;D
March 23rd, 2008, 4:06 pm
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
BecauseHeLives wrote:BS

You have WAY more sexual perverts today than you did 50 years ago. Spankings were much more prevalent 50 years ago and I thank God that I was spanked as a child when I needed correction

You have WAY more people than you had 50 years ago! So, you also have more perverts, more geniuses, more spiritial people, more atheists....more of all kinds of people.

The bible was correct in that one should correct a child who is making mistakes in behavior. However, beating children has been found to have all sorts of bad outcomes. Discipline should mean teaching the child. People used to "teach" children reading, writing and arithmetic by beating them when they made mistakes. It is now clear that such beatings greatly impair the child's ability to learn. What children need to learn is that there are consequences for all behavior, good and bad. A great book is Parenting with Love and Logic by Foster Cline and Jim Fey. It talks about setting up the situation with kids such that bad behavior produces consequences the kid won't like while good behavior produces consequences the kid will like. And hitting has no part in the consequences.

My husband and I didn't hit our kids, and they have never gotten in a bit of trouble. They don't do drugs, or even smoke or drink, even in situations where they could get away with that behavior. (I overheard their cousins complaining after our last family reunion that my boys wouldn't play any of the drinking games that my brothers' kids think are so great). Both my boys are in college earning high grades, and people tell me all the time how well behaved they are. However, just because we didn't hit them doesn't mean we didn't discipline them. We disciplined them a LOT! We did it by teaching them what kinds of behaviors would bring them positive reactions from their parents, friends, and other people, and warning them about the behavior that would lead to negative reactions from others or get them hurt. I didn't even have to deal with sibling rivalry much.

When they were little, they got into a few of the expected fraternal squabbles. My reaction was never to punish either child. We discussed what a good thing the toy was, and how reasonable it was for them to both want it. Then we talked about how to arrange the situation so they both came away feeling good and nobody ended up crying. I taught them to NEGOTIATE! And they quickly became independent in that activity. It was good when we got our first home computer and they both wanted to play with it. Without my intervention they ended up agreeing on certain hours for one to get it, and other hours (an equal number) for the other one. Because each knew he was going to get a fair share turn, they didn't have to fight over things.

Discipline is essential for children. They are happier when they know there are boundaries, and where those boundaries are. These things can be taught without violence. And I found that when children get a lot of time and attention from their parents, and that time and attention are loving and filled with good activities (baseball, basketball, hockey, museums, drawing and painting, erector sets, picniks, etc. etc. etc.) the kids don't need to misbehave because they have better things to do. I should hope we people have lerned some better ways to interact socially--even with our kids--in the past 3,000 years. Just as we have learned better medicine to save lives. What an awful thing if social relationships hadn't progressed in thousands of years!
March 23rd, 2008, 4:37 pm
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:How can you prove that there's not more?
BHL was the one making the claim. the onus is on him to support his PFMA assertion.

IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:The population has only has grown
If you're talking absolute numbers, then it is quite likely that there are more. BHL is trying to assert a correlation between not beating kids and and an increase in perverts so an increase due to population growth is irrelevant.
and if half the ridiculous ratio's given out daily are true (Example: 1 out of every 5 people have AIDs!), then they have increased in numbers. :|


Now you are implying a correlation between AIDs infection rate and perversion? The AIDs rate in the US is 0.6% and new infection rates have declined by over half since 1990. In Africa, where Christian Bishops have been preaching that condoms SPREAD AIDS rather than preventing, it the rate is 25% - 30% of the population and is increasing. AIDs infection rates correlate rather well with religiosity, so it would be more accurate to say that superstition, ignorance and deceit are at fault, not a decline in corporal punishment.
March 23rd, 2008, 5:00 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
I didn't say it was true. -_-

It was purely an example.
March 28th, 2008, 7:32 pm
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
Great comments about NOT hitting and spanking children. From my experience raising 8 children; I have never felt good about spanking a child. It only makes them fear you and it makes a normal parent feel terrible and lose the Spirit. My most effective way of disciplining is to hold back (unless someone was in physical danger) and let the Spirit guide me what to say. It makes a parent child relationship unstoppable and secure where children will always come to you because they don't have fear of physical reprisal but mostly respect that you care enough to love and teach them the Lord's way. It has been a wonderful journey even though exhausting and difficult for sure at times with young minds and impulsive bodies but all the children are productive, nice people who care about others and try to do what they feel is right in the Lord's eyes. DON'T SPANK, IT IS LIKE SWEARING, A CHEAP WAY TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS. There are much more intelligent ways to deal with children!!! Take the time to learn them and use the Holy Ghost to guide you not your impulsiveness and anger. It is not from the Lord. Who ever translanted that scripture I am sure got it a little wrong. The translater were not infallible. You only need the Spirit t o tell you so.
December 2nd, 2008, 8:34 pm
lizzytish
 
I forgot to say that I like to interpret that scripture to mean the "rod" means the WORD OF GOD and so to not use the word of God in disciplining and teaching is not showing true love to your children, as you are only relying on your own worldly opinions and knowledge. But with Jesus' teachings, no one can go wrong and the children will learn that you love them because you use the loving Savior's words.
December 2nd, 2008, 8:38 pm
lizzytish
 

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