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In an embarrasing spectacle, various churches compete to claim credit for the engineering design and hard work that promises a rescue of the trapped Chilean miners

Churches compete for credit rescuing trapped miners

It is the race within the race: while rescuers inch towards the trapped miners rival churches tussle over the miracle in the making. Evangelical, Adventist and Catholic clerics are vying to stamp their own particular faith on a surge in religious fervour as the drama nears a climax in Chile's Atacama desert.

The three Christian denominations have each claimed credit for what they say is divine intervention in the survival – and expected imminent rescue – of the 33 men who have spent 67 days beneath the earth.

"God has spoken to me clearly and guided my hand each step of the rescue," said Carlos Parra Diaz, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor at the San Jose mine. "He wanted the miners to be rescued and I am His instrument."

Yards from where he spoke Caspar Quintana, the Catholic bishop of Copiapo, prepared an altar to celebrate an outdoor mass for a small congregation of miners' relatives and phalanx of TV cameras. "God has heard our prayers," said the bishop. "I have received comments of encouragement from all over the world. Let us give thanks."

A litte bit further up the hill of Camp Hope, the improvised settlement of miners' families, rescuers, government officials and media, an evengelical preacher, Javier Soto , wandered from family to family with a guitar and songs of praise. "He listens to the music," said the pastor, gesturing to the azure sky.

Yeah - it must have this that was responsible



Not this



They don't have enough conscience to feel shame.

What a circus.... I'm watching the coverage live in French...

I wonder if they ever considered that God clearly wanted those miners trapped and starving to death - otherwise why would he make the mine collapse - and that by using man's fallible technology they are thwarting God's will?

Same ol' same ol'

When drought threatens crops, the shamans of all religions are quick to urge people to become more religious and propitiate the "correct" god(s) to end the drought. When the rain finally comes, they're there to take credit for it. Simply put, they are in the business of magical thinking, and thanks to poorly-educated, hyper-uncritical followers, it's always been a lucrative business. And always will be.

I was watching the live coverage last night, listening to comments about having hope and relying on faith and everything that goes with it. And I thought, that's great for the miners and their families. If that's what they personally needed for comfort these past couple of months (as well as the coming months as they adjust to their new lives). But while all the "thank god" was going on, I was thinking what about thanking the real people who have directly and tangibly contributed to the rescue? I hope they continue to thank god when they're going through any of the possible/expected rough patches to come. "Thank god you were saved from the mine collapse so that you're here now and making all of us suffer when you wake up screaming from nightmares."

Well, all 33 miners trapped in the Chile mine collapse have been rescued. Thanks and praise are due to the workers and engineers who managed this amazing feat of modern mining technology. The last man out said that he hoped this would never happen again. We all know that such a thing WILL inevitably happen, but hey -- it doesn't hurt to try what prevention that can be done.

I know some of the people responsible for inspecting the welding on the rescue pipeline. They developed a method of weld inspection using ultrasound, because welder's prayers don't work.

Oh great - now the salvation hero is 'free market capitalism'

wall Street Journal
It needs to be said. The rescue of the Chilean miners is a smashing victory for free-market capitalism.
...
What happened over the past 25 years that meant the difference between life and death for those men?

Short answer: the Center Rock drill bit.

This is the miracle bit that drilled down to the trapped miners. Center Rock Inc. is a private company in Berlin, Pa. It has 74 employees. The drill's rig came from Schramm Inc. in West Chester, Pa. Seeing the disaster, Center Rock's president, Brandon Fisher, called the Chileans to offer his drill. Chile accepted. The miners are alive.

Longer answer: The Center Rock drill, heretofore not featured on websites like Engadget or Gizmodo, is in fact a piece of tough technology developed by a small company in it for the money, for profit. That's why they innovated down-the-hole hammer drilling. If they make money, they can do more innovation.

This profit = innovation dynamic was everywhere at that Chilean mine. The high-strength cable winding around the big wheel atop that simple rig is from Germany. Japan supplied the super-flexible, fiber-optic communications cable that linked the miners to the world above.
...
But the reality behind the miracles is the same: Someone innovates something useful, makes money from it, and re-innovates, or someone else trumps their innovation. Most of the time, no one notices. All it does is create jobs, wealth and well-being. But without this system running in the background, without the year-over-year progress embedded in these capitalist innovations, those trapped miners would be dead.

Now of course there is some truth to that, but what's missing is the realization that free market capitlism caused the demand for copper - this mine was not a government owned and operated mine - they have a good safety record. This was a private mine with a poor safety record, determined to produce copper at the minumum cost, irrespective of worker's safety. Silicosis rates are high, the mine had to pay a premium because of it's poor safety. It was cheaper to pay the workers more than to operate safely - good old market forces at play

Just as if God wants credit for their rescue He must take the blame for causing the collapse - the free market must also accept responsibility for the collapse if it wants to share in the glory.

Uh...huh. So it seems to me that the tools and technology used in the rescue weren't developed for the purpose of rescue. Why the process of innovation should get any credit here, I can't see. The genius here belongs to the engineers who adapted the tools they had for a new purpose.

The only life-saving activity I would credit to a god would be if it put the ores and other needed materials out on the surface in easy reach, so that miners would never need to risk lives or the rest of the environment to get them.

Rescue workers found the bodies of two of the missing trapped miners in an Ecuadorian gold mine.

"Yeah, it was me", said God "there just wasn't enough prayer, and what there was, was shoddy and weak. I mean, in Chile there was drama, four churches, music and singing - all in praise of Me, so I had to step in and drill that hole. (through the hand of my minions of course). But in Ecuador the praying just wasn't up to snuff so I squished them. Sometime You've got to kill a few so that the others take notice"

AP again successfully shows his contempt for the mighty God and his ignorance of Him at the same time.

President Rafael Correa promised to do "everything possible" to save them.

"God willing, we will find them alive."

So, given your admiration for, and intimate knowledge of, God, what does He tell you His reasons are? Why were these miners unworthy of His help, when the Chilean ones received His personal attention (plus a fetching pair of Oakley shades)?

Of course, True Christians will defend God and explain that the criticisms of his "mysterious" workings are wrong-headed. But as with the basic issues of theodicy, such responses hold no intellectual weight... after all, they always boil down to "just because."

Two fools in one thread. How nice.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:

BecauseHeLives wrote:Two fools in one thread. How nice.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

#1 You aren't my brother physically or spiritually. Besides, it isn't me who is calling you a fool. It is God's word.

#2 Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

By bible definition you and AP are fools. Take it up with God if you don't like it.

Oh my how shall I sleep at nights knowing that. I will take it up with God if he ever shows up. And the Easter Bunny too.

Ecclesiastes 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.
Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

BecauseHeLives wrote:#1 You aren't my brother physically or spiritually. Besides, it isn't me who is calling you a fool. It is God's word.

We've been over this territory before, BHL. And pretty recently, IIRC.

The "word of God" you so devoutly revere tells you to "love your neighbor as yourself," and that ALL people are your neighbors.

It also makes clear that the rules for God don't apply to scum like yourself, so imitating God by calling me a fool isn't safe. JESUS said if you call someone a fool, you are in danger. Are you going to spend the rest of your life calling Jesus a liar, just so you can justify calling me names? Isn't THAT a dangerous thing to do, according to your book?

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:

BecauseHeLives wrote:#1 You aren't my brother physically or spiritually. Besides, it isn't me who is calling you a fool. It is God's word.

We've been over this territory before, BHL. And pretty recently, IIRC.

The "word of God" you so devoutly revere tells you to "love your neighbor as yourself," and that ALL people are your neighbors.

It also makes clear that the rules for God don't apply to scum like yourself, so imitating God by calling me a fool isn't safe. JESUS said if you call someone a fool, you are in danger. Are you going to spend the rest of your life calling Jesus a liar, just so you can justify calling me names? Isn't THAT a dangerous thing to do, according to your book?

You don't know your scripture SFI. Besides, I'm telling you what God has called you already. If I call you what God has already called you I am simply confirming what God has said. SFI, you are a fool. A big one too. I think the following applies to you.

Fools
•All men are, without the knowledge of God.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

•Deny God.

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

•Blaspheme God.

Psalms 74:18 Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O LORD, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.

•Reproach God.

Psalms 74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.

•Make a mock at sin.

Proverbs 14:9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour.

•Despise instruction.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

•Hate knowledge.

Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

•Delight not in understanding.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

•Sport themselves in mischief.

Proverbs 10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

•Walk in darkness.

Ecclesiastes 2:14 The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.

•Hate to depart from evil.

Proverbs 13:19 The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.

•Worship of, hateful to God.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

•ARE

◦Corrupt and abominable.

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

◦Self-sufficient.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

◦Self-confident.

Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

◦Self-deceivers.

Proverbs 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit.

◦Mere professors of religion.

Matthew 25:2-12 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. ...

◦Full of words.

Ecclesiastes 10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?

◦Given to meddling.

Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

◦Slanderers.

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

◦Liars.

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

◦Slothful.

Ecclesiastes 4:5 The fool foldeth his hands together, and eateth his own flesh.

◦Angry.

Ecclesiastes 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

◦Contentious.

Proverbs 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

◦A grief to parents.

Proverbs 17:25 A foolish son is a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.
Proverbs 19:13 A foolish son is the calamity of his father: and the contentions of a wife are a continual dropping.

•Come to shame.

Proverbs 3:35 The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.

•Destroy themselves by their speech.

Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Proverbs 10:14 Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

•The company of, ruinous.

Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

•Lips of, a snare to the soul.

Proverbs 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

•Cling to their folly.

Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Proverbs 27:22 Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him.

•Worship idols.

Jeremiah 10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
Romans 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

•Trust to their own hearts.

Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

•Depend upon their wealth.

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

•Hear the gospel and obey it not.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

•The mouth of, pours out folly.

Proverbs 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

•Honor is unbecoming for.

Proverbs 26:1 As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool.
Proverbs 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool.

•God has no pleasure in.

Ecclesiastes 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

•Shall not stand in the presence of God.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

•Avoid them.

Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
Proverbs 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.

•Exhorted to seek wisdom.

Proverbs 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

•Punishment of.

Psalms 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
Proverbs 19:29 Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools.
Proverbs 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.

•Exemplified.
Rehoboam,
1 Kings 12:8 But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:

Israel,
Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Pharisees,
Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Matthew 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

BecauseHeLives wrote:You don't know your scripture SFI.

I think I know your scriptures rather better than you do. Because I know that in the Gospels, Jesus only expressed anger toward hypocrites within his own religion, and forgave even those who put him to death. If you want to truly convince me that you are a follower of THAT man, then consider trying to act at least a little like him.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:

BecauseHeLives wrote:You don't know your scripture SFI.

I think I know your scriptures rather better than you do. Because I know that in the Gospels, Jesus only expressed anger toward hypocrites within his own religion, and forgave even those who put him to death. If you want to truly convince me that you are a follower of THAT man, then consider trying to act at least a little like him.

You THINK you know the gospels. If you did then you'd know that it is God calling you the fool and not me. However, if you truly DO know the gospels and yet still deny Christ then you are truly a huge fool. The bible clearly says that. You will be held more accountable than those who have not heard the gospels.

I keep showing you where you fail at being a Christ-follower, and you keep failing to take the advice. Shame on you. I'd threaten you with a little talk with your god (as you are so fond of doing to me), but I can't because I don't believe it exists.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:I keep showing you where you fail at being a Christ-follower, and you keep failing to take the advice. Shame on you. I'd threaten you with a little talk with your god (as you are so fond of doing to me), but I can't because I don't believe it exists.

...said the fool.

Liv wrote:

BecauseHeLives wrote:
...said the fool.

pity thy fool.jpg

LOL