What's more important, the deed or the pledge?

[Liv]

Had an interesting conversation with my room-mate tonight. They're a reformed Christian, and I'm a reformed Atheist. I explained my position on things, and he wanted to know how I became an Atheist. I explained that ultimately, I felt it was during my agnostic period in which I felt, living right was more important than pledging allegiance to a God, and of course... my argument then was, if God does exist then it wouldn't matter anyways.

This is when people do that cocked eyed RCA victor dog look and can't understand. Which does make you wonder, is the pledge, the devotion and praise to god a definite requirement of being christian, or is it measured in the deeds you do? I'm for the later of course, which likely led to my room-mate stating "I don't think you're an atheist".

[A Person]

You gotta wonder at Christians telling you what you don't believe, but we saw it with BHL and Royal Diadem, who think that if they can call you an agnostic instead of atheist then it's somehow halfway to being a Christian. All it shows is their lack of understanding of the meanings of words.

And, yes, works are more important than faith, since they actually achieve a small improvement in this world - the only one we know for sure exists. And if they are nothing but filthy rags to God or Calvinists, then their values are FUBAR.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

See, this is why Calvin (IIRC) lobbied to get the book of James removed from the Bible, this silly notion that "faith without good works is dead." He wanted to see that faith, the unbroken string of devotional acts toward God (you know... giving money to the priests), was the highest ideal, not actually in fact helping others.

[A Person]

I think that was Luther, who called it the 'epistle of straw'. After all what would Jesus' brother know about Jesus

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Oh well, the basis of salvation is an argument that has been waged for 1950 years. You'd think it was important enough that The Word OF God would have been a little more explicit and less contradictory, but maybe god has fun kicking all those smug Christians out of Heaven if they followed Paul instead of Jesus.

[Liv]

So I went to the VUB library today... it's part of the Flemish/Dutch school which my school is attached. Took me nearly an hour to find a book. Their idea of organization was beyond my comprehension till someone nicely explained it, and then I said "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!"

Pulled a dusty book off the shelf, and began reading... ran into several quotes I liked but this one stood out....

"True charity involves participating in the pain and privation of others."

It's a reference to Pieter Bruegel (The Elder) and his portrayal of the often hypocritical religious vs secular moral in his paintings.

Found it fit in with this thread well....

I also went to a museum in Tournai, and while the the world famous paintings were... um... cool... this is what caught my eye:

Love it, love it, love it.... want one for my front yard.