Thomas Jefferson was a Liberal

Thomas Jefferson was a Liberal

by Questioner | Published on March 5th, 2009, 12:09 pm | News

Most Republicans of the Rush Limbaugh ilk would not have liked one of our premier founding fathers:

Here are some actual and accurate Jefferson quotes:

"Force [is] the vital principle and immediate parent of
despotism." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801

"Lay down true principles and adhere to them inflexibly. Do not
be frightened into their surrender by the alarms of the timid, or
the croakings of wealth against the ascendency of the people."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816.

"Experience declares that man is the only animal which devours
his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to...the general
prey of the rich on the poor." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward
Carrington, 1787.

"Democrats consider the people as the safest depository of power
in the last resort; they cherish them, therefore, and wish to
leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are
competent." --Thomas Jefferson to William Short, 1825.

"Aristocrats fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to
the higher classes of society." --Thomas Jefferson to William
Short, 1825.

I recall once seeing good ol' James Kennedy giving a sermon about how evil Thomas Jefferson was, and how he was as bad as an atheist, and how America would have been Communist if he hadn't been restrained by good Christian men who were determined that American should be Christian/Capitalist forever and ever, AMEN!

"Aristocrats fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to
the higher classes of society." --Thomas Jefferson to William
Short, 1825.

Ironically that about sums up America up till now.

Liv wrote:
"Aristocrats fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to
the higher classes of society." --Thomas Jefferson to William
Short, 1825.

Ironically that about sums up America up till now.

Good description of modern democrats.

A more accurate description of TJ's liberal beliefs along with his peers and the founders of America would be "classical liberal". The post modern liberal in American politics today does not contrast very well with the classical liberal of a couple of centuries or so ago. Post modern liberalism is looking more and more like Marxism. He wasn't anti-capitalist as some of the left loons try to suggest.

"Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:337"

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/what-is-classical-liberalism
http://www.radicalacademy.com/philclassliberalism.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/
http://mises.org/etexts/classical.asp

thesumofyourfears wrote:
"Aristocrats fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to
the higher classes of society." --Thomas Jefferson to William
Short, 1825.

Good description of modern democrats.

Cognitive dissonance in action. I thought you said they were trying to tax them into oblivion?

thesumofyourfears wrote:A more accurate description of TJ's liberal beliefs along with his peers and the founders of America would be "classical liberal". The post modern liberal in American politics today does not contrast very well with the classical liberal of a couple of centuries or so ago. Post modern liberalism is looking more and more like Marxism. He wasn't anti-capitalist as some of the left loons try to suggest.

"Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:337"

SigmaPhobia is referring to what are now described as libertarians. He likes to stake out both sides of history.
Jefferson came out firmly against big-business plutocracy

The bank mania... is raising up a moneyed aristocracy in our country which has already set the government at defiance, and although forced at length to yield a little on this first essay of their strength, their principles are unyielded and unyielding. These have taken deep root in the hearts of that class from which our legislators are drawn, and the sop to Cerberus from fable has become history. Their principles lay hold of the good, their pelf of the bad, and thus those whom the Constitution had placed as guards to its portals, are sophisticated or suborned from their duties.

The principle of rotation... in the body of [bank] directors... breaks in upon the esprit de corps so apt to prevail in permanent bodies; it gives a chance for the public eye penetrating into the sanctuary of those proceedings and practices, which the avarice of the directors may introduce for their personal emolument, and which the resentments of excluded directors, or the honesty of those duly admitted, might betray to the public; and it gives an opportunity at the end of the year, or at other periods, of correcting a choice, which on trial, proves to have been unfortunate.

Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains

And some SigmaPhobia will like

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.

A Person wrote:
thesumofyourfears wrote:A more accurate description of TJ's liberal beliefs along with his peers and the founders of America would be "classical liberal". The post modern liberal in American politics today does not contrast very well with the classical liberal of a couple of centuries or so ago. Post modern liberalism is looking more and more like Marxism. He wasn't anti-capitalist as some of the left loons try to suggest.

"Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:337"

SigmaPhobia is referring to what are now described as libertarians. He likes to stake out both sides of history.
Jefferson came out firmly against big-business plutocracy

The bank mania... is raising up a moneyed aristocracy in our country which has already set the government at defiance, and although forced at length to yield a little on this first essay of their strength, their principles are unyielded and unyielding. These have taken deep root in the hearts of that class from which our legislators are drawn, and the sop to Cerberus from fable has become history. Their principles lay hold of the good, their pelf of the bad, and thus those whom the Constitution had placed as guards to its portals, are sophisticated or suborned from their duties.

The principle of rotation... in the body of [bank] directors... breaks in upon the esprit de corps so apt to prevail in permanent bodies; it gives a chance for the public eye penetrating into the sanctuary of those proceedings and practices, which the avarice of the directors may introduce for their personal emolument, and which the resentments of excluded directors, or the honesty of those duly admitted, might betray to the public; and it gives an opportunity at the end of the year, or at other periods, of correcting a choice, which on trial, proves to have been unfortunate.

Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains

And some SigmaPhobia will like
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.

"A government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."

Be careful what you wish for, grasshopper.

thesumofyourfears wrote:"A government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."

We've already had the second half. Didn't you notice?

The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Thomas Jefferson

if we are to dream, the flatteries of hope are as cheap, and pleasanter, than the gloom of despair.

A Person wrote:
thesumofyourfears wrote:"A government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."
We've already had the second half. Didn't you notice?
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Thomas Jefferson

if we are to dream, the flatteries of hope are as cheap, and pleasanter, than the gloom of despair.

Trying to portray TJ as a socialist with his own quotes is pitiful on your part. You can do it all day long, but you are dead wrong. TJ and the founders believed in Liberty, not a socialist slave state.

"The republic will cease to exist when Government takes from those who are industrious and gives to those who refuse to work.”

-Thomas Jefferson

thesumofyourfears wrote:Trying to portray TJ as a socialist with his own quotes is pitiful on your part. You can do it all day long, but you are dead wrong. TJ and the founders believed in Liberty, not a socialist slave state.
"The republic will cease to exist when Government takes from those who are industrious and gives to those who refuse to work.”
-Thomas Jefferson

Well, you again show your vast ignorance. A liberal is not a socialist. (No matter what that idiot Rush Limbaugh and his ilk say). A liberal believes that human beings are more important than business entities (corporations). A liberal believes that all people are important, not just the rich ones. A liberal believes that the products of work should be shared fairly among those who produce the goods and services that constitute commerce. If all employers fairly paid workers, then there would not be a huge problem in the U.S. The confiscatory salaries and perks that CEOs and corporate managers have happily awarded themselves while laying off and underpaying large numbers of employees is not true capitalism. It is plutocracy. Jefferson specifically warned against allowing banks (the most dangerous businesses of his time) to gain too much power. There were no multinational and hugely powerful corporations during his time. So he could not warn against them. However, his purpose was clear. It was to stand up for individual rights and liberty.

Look at Japan. It can hardly be called a socialist country. But it does not allow corporate executives to rape the employees and stockholders by taking an unconsciencely high proportion of the profits of the company. I believe somebody who works at a full time job should make a living wage and be entitled to health care benefits. That is not anywhere near saying that I believe in socialism. I simply believe that businesses should be required to operate in an honest and fair fashion. Unless you are completely blind and ignorant of current events, you should be able to see the horrible damage to the world that was done by irresponsible and dishonest plutocrats under the leadership of the Bush administration.

This is a problem with labels. However the only person to use the label 'socialist' is Sigmaphobia, who is equally guilty of co-opting the long dead Jefferson to his banner.

Was he a socialist? Of course not. Was he a neocon Reagan/Bush/Limbaughian conservative? Of course not.

From Jefferson's writings we know that he was an intelligent rational person who was vehemently opposed to big business, big government and big religion. To seize on one of these (big government) as if it was the only aspect of Jefferson's character, is pointless.

One thing that is abundantly clear is that Jefferson would be appalled at the mismanagement of the Bush administration and its pandering to all three: big business, big government and big religion. He was no fan of anti-intellectualism, abrogation of constitutional rights or plain incompetence.

Questioner wrote:
thesumofyourfears wrote:Trying to portray TJ as a socialist with his own quotes is pitiful on your part. You can do it all day long, but you are dead wrong. TJ and the founders believed in Liberty, not a socialist slave state.
"The republic will cease to exist when Government takes from those who are industrious and gives to those who refuse to work.”
-Thomas Jefferson

Well, you again show your vast ignorance. A liberal is not a socialist. (No matter what that idiot Rush Limbaugh and his ilk say). A liberal believes that human beings are more important than business entities (corporations). A liberal believes that all people are important, not just the rich ones. A liberal believes that the products of work should be shared fairly among those who produce the goods and services that constitute commerce. If all employers fairly paid workers, then there would not be a huge problem in the U.S. The confiscatory salaries and perks that CEOs and corporate managers have happily awarded themselves while laying off and underpaying large numbers of employees is not true capitalism. It is plutocracy. Jefferson specifically warned against allowing banks (the most dangerous businesses of his time) to gain too much power. There were no multinational and hugely powerful corporations during his time. So he could not warn against them. However, his purpose was clear. It was to stand up for individual rights and liberty.

Look at Japan. It can hardly be called a socialist country. But it does not allow corporate executives to rape the employees and stockholders by taking an unconsciencely high proportion of the profits of the company. I believe somebody who works at a full time job should make a living wage and be entitled to health care benefits. That is not anywhere near saying that I believe in socialism. I simply believe that businesses should be required to operate in an honest and fair fashion. Unless you are completely blind and ignorant of current events, you should be able to see the horrible damage to the world that was done by irresponsible and dishonest plutocrats under the leadership of the Bush administration.

How about showing some intelligence and scroll up and read my posts at 05 Mar 2009 12:18. BTW, the Japanese have a culture that youth respects the older generation ahead of them, unlike our culture here where youth could care less about it. It shows in the workplace and in school. I part time teach some and I can vouch for it, and they a very strong work ethic, which we are lacking here, and the govt and business work together far better than we do. It is a cat-and-mouse, us-against-them mentality that we have here in USA. Blind and ignorant, you say? How about you haven't a clue to how a business operates, your lack understanding of how the markets work, and you lack an understanding of basic economics, all which is a common thread in the leftist community. If you did, you would have not make the shallow comments you made.

A Person wrote:This is a problem with labels. However the only person to use the label 'socialist' is Sigmaphobia, who is equally guilty of co-opting the long dead Jefferson to his banner.

Was he a socialist? Of course not. Was he a neocon Reagan/Bush/Limbaughian conservative? Of course not.

From Jefferson's writings we know that he was an intelligent rational person who was vehemently opposed to big business, big government and big religion. To seize on one of these (big government) as if it was the only aspect of Jefferson's character, is pointless.

One thing that is abundantly clear is that Jefferson would be appalled at the mismanagement of the Bush administration and its pandering to all three: big business, big government and big religion. He was no fan of anti-intellectualism, abrogation of constitutional rights or plain incompetence.

He would also be appalled at dumbama's spending us into far more debt that we previously had; his irreverence for unborn child, which is an innocent life; his anti 2nd amendment stand; and his hatred for our system of government, which is a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy...the list goes on. Dumbama is the antithesis of TJ and the rest of the founders of our nation. He agenda is to bring this country into a socialist state. It is obvious. BTW, grasshopper, RR, W and Limbaugh have a lot of respect for and believe in many of the ideas of TJ, far more than you are willing to believe and accept. Hell, many of the founders disagreed on many things, but they eventually came together on 17 Sept 1787 with the first draft of the Constitution.

thesumofyourfears wrote:He would also be appalled at dumbama's spending us into far more debt that we previously had

Ah yes. Republicans are suddenly now concerned with budget deficits. Bush obliterated the $127 billion budget surplus he inherited and turned it into a of $400+ billion/year deficit. Reagan took the national debt from $998 million to $2.9 trillion. But somehow this is conveniently forgotten in all the histronics.

Dick Cheyney wrote:"You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter,"

The Republican "we're the party of fiscal restraint" is patently false yet by repeating it ad-nauseum they manage to fool those like you who choose not to look at the actual facts and prefer to make them up.

thesumofyourfears wrote:his irreverence for unborn child, which is an innocent life

Jefferson didn't say much about abortion, it just wasn't an issue then, which is not to say that it didn't happen. After all, in Jefferson's time abortion was not illegal until after 'quickening' (around 20 weeks). However he did say this

They [The Indian of North America ] raise fewer children than we do. The causes of this are to be found, not in a difference of nature, but of circumstance. The women very frequently attending the men in their parties of war and of hunting, child-bearing becomes extremely inconvenient to them. It is said, therefore, that they have learnt the practice of procuring abortion by the use of some vegetable; and that it even extends to prevent conception for a considerable time after.

Note that there is no condemnation of the practice, no outrage or accusations of baby killing, no accusations of savagery . None of the language of today's religious right in fact. Jefferson describes it as a natural practice resulting from circumstance, necessity and ability. His article is articulating the humanity of the Indians not their savagery. So your claim is specious. Again.

thesumofyourfears wrote: his hatred for our system of government, which is a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy...

You're raving. The US is a form of democracy - a democratic Constitutional Republic. When has Obama ever done anything to show 'hatred' for the system that elected him? When has he tried to change the system to a 'democracy'? He has unequivocally supported minority rights - something only possible in a system where the rights of the majority are tempered by a constitution that protects the rights of minorities against the 'tyranny of the majority'.

In other words your claims that Jefferson would support your politics and antisocial agenda are as specious and self-serving as your claims that Jesus would too. You may worship Jefferson, but he was clearly not a fan of your politics. You have built a mental caricature of the man by cherry picking his quotes to find ones you like and ignore the ones you don't and you trot this caricature out to lend reflected authority to your politics.

A Person wrote:
thesumofyourfears wrote:He would also be appalled at dumbama's spending us into far more debt that we previously had

Ah yes. Republicans are suddenly now concerned with budget deficits. Bush obliterated the $127 billion budget surplus he inherited and turned it into a of $400+ billion/year deficit. Reagan took the national debt from $998 million to $2.9 trillion. But somehow this is conveniently forgotten in all the histronics.
fiscalconservative.jpg

Dick Cheyney wrote:"You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter,"

The Republican "we're the party of fiscal restraint" is patently false yet by repeating it ad-nauseum they manage to fool those like you who choose not to look at the actual facts and prefer to make them up.

thesumofyourfears wrote:his irreverence for unborn child, which is an innocent life

Jefferson didn't say much about abortion, it just wasn't an issue then, which is not to say that it didn't happen. After all, in Jefferson's time abortion was not illegal until after 'quickening' (around 20 weeks). However he did say this
They [The Indian of North America ] raise fewer children than we do. The causes of this are to be found, not in a difference of nature, but of circumstance. The women very frequently attending the men in their parties of war and of hunting, child-bearing becomes extremely inconvenient to them. It is said, therefore, that they have learnt the practice of procuring abortion by the use of some vegetable; and that it even extends to prevent conception for a considerable time after.

Note that there is no condemnation of the practice, no outrage or accusations of baby killing, no accusations of savagery . None of the language of today's religious right in fact. Jefferson describes it as a natural practice resulting from circumstance, necessity and ability. His article is articulating the humanity of the Indians not their savagery. So your claim is specious. Again.

thesumofyourfears wrote: his hatred for our system of government, which is a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy...
You're raving. The US is a form of democracy - a democratic Constitutional Republic. When has Obama ever done anything to show 'hatred' for the system that elected him? When has he tried to change the system to a 'democracy'? He has unequivocally supported minority rights - something only possible in a system where the rights of the majority are tempered by a constitution that protects the rights of minorities against the 'tyranny of the majority'.

In other words your claims that Jefferson would support your politics and antisocial agenda are as specious and self-serving as your claims that Jesus would too. You may worship Jefferson, but he was clearly not a fan of your politics. You have built a mental caricature of the man by cherry picking his quotes to find ones you like and ignore the ones you don't and you trot this caricature out to lend reflected authority to your politics.

A-fraud, you are good and twisting the truth.

thesumofyourfears wrote:A-fraud, you are good and twisting the truth.

In his own inimitable way, SigmaPhonia acknowledges he was wrong.

A Person wrote:
thesumofyourfears wrote:A-fraud, you are good and twisting the truth.
In his own inimitable way, SigmaPhonia acknowledges he was wrong.

Hell, I even buy your own personal jersey for ya!!!

Thanks, but I already have one. March 9th, 2009, 2:40 pm Reply with quote

Thanks, but I already have one.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

Sounds a lot like the federal banking regulations the Republicans are SOO up in arms about. You won't hear them using this Jefferson quote, though. Funny.

FYI this quote "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." is probably fabricated.

What TJ opposed and what A. Hamilton wanted was what we have today: Federal Reserve System created by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, which today is essentially a private bank. Passed under W.Wilson admin and sponsored by 2 Democrats. Good or bad, it has become a corrupt organization and can share blame with Congress for creating inflation as we have it today. As far as the private banking industry today is already heavily regulated. No much complaining from Democrats on Federal Reserve profits. Karl Marx capitalized on TJ thoughts on a centralized banking to advance his cause. Ron Paul does have a point about the Federal Reserve.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/11/AR2010011103892.html

thesumofyourfears wrote:Good or bad, it has become a corrupt organization and can share blame with Congress for creating inflation as we have it today.

Current (December) US inflation rate 2.7213% which is usually considered optimal.

thesumofyourfears wrote:Federal Reserve System created by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, which today is essentially a private bank

That's ludicrous. It's the central bank, it's goals to stabilize and protect banks from runs and to implement the Government's monetary policy. It's 'essentially' a public bank, an agent of, and answerable to, the government.

thesumofyourfears wrote:As far as the private banking industry today is already heavily regulated

it was after the first depression - for doing much the same things that it did prior to this one after it was deregulated.

thesumofyourfears wrote: No much complaining from Democrats on Federal Reserve profits.

$45 billion for 2009 which goes into the treasury (the Fed is self funding and profits credit to the Treasury). That's hardly bad news - decreasing the deficit. So you are right, no complaints here. While profits last year were unusually high they were a rather nice side effect of it's role in stabilizing the financial markets. Unlike a private bank, it's CEO pulled in only a modest $200,000 with no bonus (two tea Party speeches for Sarah). You'd think a corrupt organization would funnel more of it's record profits into it's executive's pockets and not into the public purse, since "after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money"

thesumofyourfears wrote:Karl Marx capitalized on TJ thoughts on a centralized banking to advance his cause

That just makes no sense. Central Banks have been around since the 1600's - first with the Bank of Amsterdam and then the Bank of England.

This reminds me of a creation 'science' argument, 'economicsy' sounding words rather than 'sciency' ones, but with the same complete lack of understanding of the basics. I find it difficult to believe you've ever taken an economics course.

If Summy ever took any economics course, I expect he ignored the instructor and guessed his way to a C- grade on the strength of multiple-choice answering. :roll:

So far as I can tell, inflation isn't really that big a problem. Sure, my pay raises (when I get them) don't keep up, but the falling behind process is pretty slow, and buying much of my stuff on sale and directly from local businesses helps with that. At least for now...

It's ironic that it was the deliberate and targeted action by the central bank that ended inflation in the early 80's. (and contributed to the 'Reagan Recession')

But maybe Summy doesn't remember 24% interest rates and the housing collapse since he was dazzled by the perfection of Reagan's hair.

: reagan.jpg (4.46 KiB) Viewed 2386 times