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Observable, Repeatable Experiment in Evolution

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Published on Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:34 pm
  
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http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php
A New Step In Evolution
Category: Microcosm: The Book
Posted on: June 2, 2008 9:41 PM, by Carl Zimmer

One of the most important experiments in evolution is going on right now in a laboratory in Michigan State University. A dozen flasks full of E. coli are sloshing around on a gently rocking table. The bacteria in those flasks has been evolving since 1988--for over 44,000 generations. And because they've been so carefully observed all that time, they've revealed some important lessons about how evolution works.

The experiment was launched by MSU biologist Richard Lenski. I wrote about Lenski's work last year in the New York Times, and in more detail my new book Microcosm. Lenski started off with a single microbe. It divided a few times into identical clones, from which Lenski started 12 colonies. He kept each of these 12 lines in its own flask. Each day he and his colleagues provided the bacteria with a little glucose, which was gobbled up by the afternoon. The next morning, the scientists took a small sample from each flask and put it in a new one with fresh glucose. And on and on and on, for 20 years and running.

Based on what scientists already knew about evolution, Lenski expected that the bacteria would experience natural selection in their new environment. In each generation, some of the microbes would mutate. Most of the mutations would be harmful, killing the bacteria or making them grow more slowly. Others would be beneficial allowing them to breed faster in their new environment. They would gradually dominate the population, only to be replaced when a new mutation arose to produce an even fitter sort of microbe.

Lenski used a simple but elegant method to find out if this would happen. He froze some of the original bacteria in each line, and then froze bacteria every 500 generations. Whenever he was so inclined, he could go back into this fossil record and thaw out some bacteria, bringing them back to life. By putting the newest bacteria in his lines in a flask along with their ancestors, for example, he could compare how well the bacteria had adapted to the environment he had created.

Over the generations, in fits and starts, the bacteria did indeed evolve into faster breeders. The bacteria in the flasks today breed 75% faster on average than their original ancestor. Lenski and his colleagues have pinpointed some of the genes that have evolved along the way; in some cases, for example, the same gene has changed in almost every line, but it has mutated in a different spot in each case. Lenski and his colleagues have also shown how natural selection has demanded trade-offs from the bacteria; while they grow faster on a meager diet of glucose, they've gotten worse at feeding on some other kinds of sugars.

Last year Lenski was elected to the National Academy of Sciences. This week he is publishing an inaugural paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences with his student Zachary Blount and postdoc Christina Borland. Lenski told me about the discovery behind the paper when I first met him a few years ago. He was clearly excited, but he wasn't ready to go public. There were still a lot of tests to run to understand exactly what had happened to the bacteria.

Now they're sure. Out of the blue, their bacteria had abandoned Lenski's their glucose-only diet and had evolved a new way to eat.

After 33,127 generations Lenski and his students noticed something strange in one of the colonies. The flask started to turn cloudy. This happens sometimes when contaminating bacteria slip into a flask and start feeding on a compound in the broth known as citrate. Citrate is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen; it's essentially the same as the citric acid that makes lemons tart. Our own cells produce citrate in the long chain of chemical reactions that lets us draw energy from food. Many species of bacteria can eat citrate, but in an oxygen-rich environment like Lenski's lab, E. coli can't. The problem is that the bacteria can't pull the molecule in through their membranes. In fact, their failure has long been one of the defining hallmarks of E. coli as a species.

If citrate-eating bacteria invade the flasks, however, they can feast on the abundant citrate, and their exploding population turns the flask cloudy. This has only happened rarely in Lenski's experiment, and when it does, he and his colleagues throw out the flask and start the line again from its most recently frozen ancestors.

But in one remarkable case, however, they discovered that a flask had turned cloudy without any contamination. It was E. coli chowing down on the citrate. The researchers found that when they put the bacteria in pure citrate, the microbes could thrive on it as their sole source of carbon.

In nature, there have been a few reports of E. coli that can feed on citrate. But these oddballs all acquired a ring of DNA called a plasmid from some other species of bacteria. Lenski selected a strain of E. coli for his experiments that doesn't have any plasmids, there were no other bacteria in the experiment, and the evolved bacteria remain plasmid-free. So the only explanation was that this one line of E. coli had evolved the ability to eat citrate on its own.

Blount took on the job of figuring out what happened. He first tried to figure out when it happened. He went back through the ancestral stocks to see if they included any citrate-eaters. For the first 31,000 generations, he could find none. Then, in generation 31,500, they made up 0.5% of the population. Their population rose to 19% in the next 1000 generations, but then they nearly vanished at generation 33,000. But in the next 120 generations or so, the citrate-eaters went berserk, coming to dominate the population.

This rise and fall and rise suggests that the evolution of citrate-eating was not a one-mutation affair. The first mutation (or mutations) allowed the bacteria to eat citrate, but they were outcompeted by some glucose-eating mutants that still had the upper hand. Only after they mutated further did their citrate-eating become a recipe for success.

The scientists wondered if other lines of E. coli carried some of these invisible populations of weak citrate-eaters. They didn't. This was quite remarkable. As I said earlier, Lenski's research has shown that in many ways, evolution is repeatable. The 12 lines tend to evolve in the same direction. (They even tend to get plump, for reasons yet to be understood.) Often these parallel changes are the result of changes to the same genes. And yet when it comes to citrate-eating, evolution seems to have produced a fluke.

To gauge the flukiness of the citrate-eaters, Blount and Lenski replayed evolution. They grew new populations from 12 time points in the 33,000-generations of pre-citrate-eating bacteria. They let the bacteria evolve for thousands of generations, monitoring them for any signs of citrate-eating. They then transferred the bacteria to Petri dishes with nothing but citrate to eat. All told, they tested 40 trillion cells. Here's a movie of what that looks like...



Out of that staggering hoard of bacteria, only a handful of citrate-eating mutants arose. None of the original ancestors or early predecessors gave rise to citrate-eaters; only later stages in the line could--mostly from 27,000 generations or beyond. Still, even among these later E. coli, the odds of evolving into a citrate-eater was staggeringly low, on the order of one-in-a-trillion.

Now the scientists must determine the precise genetic steps these bacteria took to evolve from glucose-eaters to citrate-eaters. In order to eat a particular molecule, E. coli needs a special channel in its membranes through which to draw it. It's possible, for example, that a channel dedicated to some other molecule mutated into a form that could also take in citrate. Later mutations could have fine-tuned it so that it could suck in citrate quickly.

If E. coli is defined as a species that can't eat citrate, does that mean that Lenski's team has witnessed the origin of a new species? The question is actually murkier than it seems, because the traditional concept of species doesn't fit bacteria very comfortably. (For the details, check out my new article on Scientific American, "What is a Species?") In nature, E. coli swaps lots of genes with other species. In just the past 15 years or so, for example, one disease-causing strain of E. coli acquired hundreds of genes not found in closely related E. coli strains. (See my recent article in Slate.) Another hallmark of E. coli is its ability to break down lactose, the sugar in milk. But several strains have lost the ability to break it down. (In fact, these strains were originally given a different name--Shigella--until scientists realized that they were just weird strains of E. coli.)

Nevertheless, Lenski and his colleagues have witnessed a significant change. And their new paper makes clear that just because the odds of such a significant change are incredibly rare doesn't mean that it can't happen. Natural selection, in fact, ensures that sometimes it does. And, finally, it demonstrates that after twenty years, Lenski's invisible dynasty still has some surprises in store.

Source: Z.D. Blount, C.Z. Borland, and R.E. Lenski, "HI istorical Contigency and the Evolution of a Key Innovation in an Experimental Population of Escherichia coli." PNAS in press (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.0803151105) [Link will go live at some point this week]


An excellent example of pure scientific research in action.

 
blackhole.jpg

RebelSnake wrote:A New Step In Evolution


This is an exciting thread!

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RebelSnake wrote:An excellent example of pure scientific research in action.

When my son was touring his university on a recruiting trip, I was able to sit in with him on some interviews he had with the professors. One of them was doing research on bacteria (I'm pretty sure it wasn't e coli. though), using directed evolution as part of the current project he was working on. It's been a few years since then, and I forget the details of the research that he was doing, but I found the basic idea very interesting indeed.

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One of the best things about this article, the way I see it, is it is exactly what a lot of beLIEvers claim doesn't exist, evolution is observable and repeatable.

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RebelSnake wrote:One of the best things about this article, the way I see it, is it is exactly what a lot of beLIEvers claim doesn't exist, evolution is observable and repeatable.



This is a strawman argument.

strawman.gif


Christians do NOT claim that change within "kind" (Genesis 1:25) does not exist. However, asserting that God created "kind"s there is variation among those "Kind"s. Therefore the bacteria is not and does not become a salamander as it is a different KIND.

Sterling

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Creationists will only accept change as proof of evolution if it results in precisely what evolution says does not happen. Mothers give birth to young of their own species, they never give birth to a new species. Given enough generations and reproductive isolation, the young from one line of decent will vary sufficiently from the young of another to form a new species. Given more generations the divergence can be sufficiently different that a a new genus will be formed. then Family, Order, Class etc.

'Kind' is a conveniently flexible undefined concept that somehow lumps all 'cats' as one 'kind' suggesting that 'kind' is equivalent to Family, all 'frogs' and 'toads' one kind, suggesting that 'kind' is equivalent to Order. Except for humans where kind has to be equivalent to species, arguing that there is no difference between

a tiger

Image

and an ocelot

Image

, a cane toad

Image

and a tree frog

Image

but an insurmountable difference between a Human

Image

and a Bonobo

Image.

This experiment however clearly show that genes are not 'front loaded' and that new information does arise from mutation and selection.
(edited to fix frog pic link)

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A Person wrote:a tiger
and an ocelot


error: principium tertii exclusi

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A Person wrote:
This experiment however clearly show that genes are not 'front loaded' and that new information does arise from mutation and selection.


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/still_just_a_lizard.php

As this article clearly shows, evolution can act very quickly. These lizards even evolved new organs in the space of thirty years. This is documented proof of evolution in action, much to the chagrin of beLIEvers all across the country.

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royaldiadem wrote:
A Person wrote:a tiger
and an ocelot


error: principium tertii exclusi

What do you think you are? Some kind of Microsoft JesusXP spitting out random error messages?

Please explain what you mean by 'excluded middle', how that applies to the examples I gave and what logical error you claim I gave committed (principium tertii exclusi is not a logical fallacy, it's a proposition). Try to use more than four words and see if you can achieve a coherent sentence.

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A Person wrote:
royaldiadem wrote:
A Person wrote:a tiger
and an ocelot


error: principium tertii exclusi

What do you think you are? Some kind of Microsoft JesusXP spitting out random error messages?

Please explain what you mean by 'excluded middle', how that applies to the examples I gave and what logical error you claim I gave committed (principium tertii exclusi is not a logical fallacy, it's a proposition). Try to use more than four words and see if you can achieve a coherent sentence.

I guess you're in for a long wait if you want him to start making sense.

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A Person wrote:Please explain


Just getting this previously ignored thread going.
LostInSpaceRobot.jpg

The association is: The Look the same, therefore they came from the same.

error,.. error, error,.. danger will robinson, danger,....

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Ahh a sentance - and almost intelligible. Isn't language wonderful. Keep trying, one day you may be able to string a few together and make a paragraph.

The association is: The Look the same, therefore they came from the same.


No the argument is that the concept of 'kinds' is useless as it cannot be defined.

You and other Creationists accept evolution but claim that it only happens within 'kinds'. This is now considered by Young Earth Bible literalists to be sound theology and necessary to account for the current diversity of life and the limitations of the Genesis ark to carry all ancestors of modern life and all extinct forms.

I am assuming that you would agree with other Young Earth Creationists that 'cats' are one kind, 'frogs and toads' another but that bonobos and humans are not the same kind?

If not, was Adam an ancestor to Humans, Chimps, Bonobos and Gorillas? What about Orangutans? Where is the dividing line between 'kinds' and how may it be reliably identified in a genome?

Uglys.jpg


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A Person wrote:Ahh a sentance - and almost intelligible. Isn't language wonderful. Keep trying, one day you may be able to string a few together and make a paragraph.

The association is: The Look the same, therefore they came from the same.


No the argument is that the concept of 'kinds' is useless as it cannot be defined.

You and other Creationists accept evolution but claim that it only happens within 'kinds'. This is now considered by Young Earth Bible literalists to be sound theology and necessary to account for the current diversity of life and the limitations of the Genesis ark to carry all ancestors of modern life and all extinct forms.

I am assuming that you would agree with other Young Earth Creationists that 'cats' are one kind, 'frogs and toads' another but that bonobos and humans are not the same kind?

If not, was Adam an ancestor to Humans, Chimps, Bonobos and Gorillas? What about Orangutans? Where is the dividing line between 'kinds' and how may it be reliably identified in a genome?

Uglys.jpg

Excellent questions all!! Too bad you'll never get an answer worth a damn.

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A Person wrote:Ahh a sentance - and almost intelligible. Isn't language wonderful. Keep trying, one day you may be able to string a few together and make a paragraph.

Your unhelpful ad hominems do not help your case, they demonstrate a frustration that comes when there is no response that makes sense readily available. I know you dont like dealing with me and the Christian Worldview, so once that is acknowledged, how about getting on to your questions and leave the personal attacks to a face to face discussion, ok? That way the remaining readers dont have to wade thru the nonsense.
A Person wrote:No the argument is that the concept of 'kinds' is useless as it cannot be defined.

Not according to your standards. The problem is a debate with the current definition and structure built on a secular humanistic naturalistic foundation: biological classification and taxonomic rank. There are problems and debates that are unsettled, therefore the definition problem is one owned by the secular humanistic naturalist.
A Person wrote:You and other Creationists accept evolution

What you would term "Micro-evolution" - variation within the Kind.
A Person wrote: but claim that it only happens within 'kinds'.

No, I recognize the results of a Supreme Omniscient and Omnipotent Creator who Created ex-nihilo and intended variation within the Kind. (what you are observing) along with the effects of Man's sin and the Curse, (error that disfigures and corrupts).
A Person wrote: This is now considered by Young Earth Bible literalists to be sound theology and necessary to account for the current diversity of life and the limitations of the Genesis ark to carry all ancestors of modern life and all extinct forms.
I am assuming that you would agree with other Young Earth Creationists that 'cats' are one kind, 'frogs and toads' another but that bonobos and humans are not the same kind?
If not, was Adam an ancestor to Humans, Chimps, Bonobos and Gorillas? What about Orangutans? Where is the dividing line between 'kinds' and how may it be reliably identified in a genome?

Are you asking if Adam was the first man?, Yes, and the variation between kinds takes care of the others,... except Bono. :-)

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royaldiadem wrote:Your unhelpful ad hominems do not help your case, they demonstrate a frustration that comes when there is no response that makes sense readily available. I know you dont like dealing with me and the Christian Worldview, so once that is acknowledged, how about getting on to your questions and leave the personal attacks to a face to face discussion, ok? That way the remaining readers dont have to wade thru the nonsense.
I do you the courtesy of communicating with complete and properly constructed sentences, assembled to make an understandable argument. I expect that you do the same, as you have with this reply.

Statements like "The association is: The Look the same, therefore they came from the same." or "error: principium tertii exclusi" are not useful responses. They fail to communicate. I also suggest that you look up what 'ad hominem' means.
Wikipedia wrote:replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument

I criticise your communication skills when you post non-sequitur one-liners because they fail to communicate any substantive argument - I believe that is a legitimate criticism. I disagree with your presuppositions, but I'm quite willing to have a reasoned discussion with you.
royaldiadem wrote: The problem is a debate with the current definition and structure built on a secular humanistic naturalistic foundation: biological classification and taxonomic rank. There are problems and debates that are unsettled, therefore the definition problem is one owned by the secular humanistic naturalist.

Nope, sorry. Science ("the secular humanistic naturalist" in your vernacular) has a long established, consistent and objective taxonomic system, that was originated (by a Creationist in the days when Creationists studied the creation) using scientific principles and which has stood up to major new discoveries - such as genetics - remarkably well. The concept of baraminology has been around since 1941, but like all 'creation science' is moribund and unproductive because it seeks to fit the data to the theory instead of the other way round. There can be no valid, objective definition of 'kind' if it seeks to separate humans in one kind yet lump all 'cats', 'frogs' etc. in another, simply to satisfy the requirement that space on the mythical ark was limited.

royaldiadem wrote:What you would term "Micro-evolution" - variation within the Kind.
Nope, I term it evolution. All evolution is microevolution, given enough of it, large changes result. Micro evolution is a step, enough of them make a journey.

royaldiadem wrote:Are you asking if Adam was the first man?, Yes,

No, I was asking:
A Person wrote:I am assuming that you would agree with other Young Earth Creationists that 'cats' are one kind, 'frogs and toads' another but that bonobos and humans are not the same kind?
If not, was Adam an ancestor to Humans, Chimps, Bonobos and Gorillas? What about Orangutans? Where is the dividing line between 'kinds' and how may it be reliably identified in a genome?

It seems from your answer that you put Humans as one "kind" (except for Bono) and all the other primates as a different "kind", which is the orthodox Creationist stance. So we come back to my original point. There is a greater difference between a Tiger and an Ocelot, a cane toad and a tree frog, an Orangutan and a Bonobo than there is between a Bonobo and a human. So there is no objective or scientific justification for 'kind' which is simply an excuse for avoiding the issue.

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A Person wrote:Statements like "The association is: The Look the same, therefore they came from the same." or "error: principium tertii exclusi" are not useful responses. They fail to communicate. I also suggest that you look up what 'ad hominem' means.


Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person). This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself. The most obvious example of this fallacy is when one debater maligns the character of another debater (e.g, "The members of the opposition are a couple of fascists!"), but this is actually not that common. A more typical manifestation of argumentum ad hominem is attacking a source of information -- for example, responding to a quotation from Richard Nixon on the subject of free trade with China by saying, "We all know Nixon was a liar and a cheat, so why should we believe anything he says?" Argumentum ad hominem also occurs when someone's arguments are discounted merely because they stand to benefit from the policy they advocate -- such as Bill Gates arguing against antitrust, rich people arguing for lower taxes, white people arguing against affirmative action, minorities arguing for affirmative action, etc. In all of these cases, the relevant question is not who makes the argument, but whether the argument is valid.

It is always bad form to use the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. But there are some cases when it is not really a fallacy, such as when one needs to evaluate the truth of factual statements (as opposed to lines of argument or statements of value) made by interested parties. If someone has an incentive to lie about something, then it would be naive to accept his statements about that subject without question. It is also possible to restate many ad hominem arguments so as to redirect them toward ideas rather than people, such as by replacing "My opponents are fascists" with "My opponents' arguments are fascist."


Here's the definition for ya A Person. Saves Mr true beLIEver the hassle of doing it himself. :mrgreen:

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Here's the one he should be reading up on though.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance). This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

Whether or not an argumentum ad ignorantiam is really fallacious depends crucially upon the burden of proof. In an American courtroom, where the burden of proof rests with the prosecution, it would be fallacious for the prosecution to argue, "The defendant has no alibi, therefore he must have committed the crime." But it would be perfectly valid for the defense to argue, "The prosecution has not proven the defendant committed the crime, therefore you should declare him not guilty." Both statements have the form of an argumentum ad ignorantiam; the difference is the burden of proof.

In debate, the proposing team in a debate round is usually (but not always) assumed to have the burden of proof, which means that if the team fails to prove the proposition to the satisfaction of the judge, the opposition wins. In a sense, the opposition team's case is assumed true until proven false. But the burden of proof can sometimes be shifted; for example, in some forms of debate, the proposing team can shift the burden of proof to the opposing team by presenting a prima facie case that would, in the absence of refutation, be sufficient to affirm the proposition. Still, the higher burden generally rests with the proposing team, which means that only the opposition is in a position to make an accusation of argumentum ad ignorantiam with respect to proving the proposition.


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A Person wrote:I also suggest that you look up what 'ad hominem' means.

And so we start yet another turn of the wheel. The meaning and usage of this (and other Latin terms) have been dragged into conversations more than enough times. I think we all realize that RD uses them in order to derail attempts at conversation and send them off on unrelated tangents. This is a desired outcome for him, since he knows he's outclassed in an actual debate on virtually any topic that we discuss here.

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SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:The meaning and usage of this (and other Latin terms) have been dragged into conversations more than enough times.

Argumentum obscurum per obscurius

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A Person wrote:I do you the courtesy of communicating with complete and properly constructed sentences, assembled to make an understandable argument. I expect that you do the same, as you have with this reply.


Perhaps I'm just a little too busy for you! Sorry, but I have other responsbilities, response will have to wait until I can consult a sentence specialist with time to wade thru the feculence.

On second thought, I'm just too busy right now. I'll review and take time to answer later.....

:-)

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SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:
A Person wrote: I think we all realize that RD uses them in order to derail attempts at conversation and send them off on unrelated tangents. This is a desired outcome for him, since he knows he's outclassed in an actual debate on virtually any topic that we discuss here.


Mindreader huh? Well, you're an unsuccessful one. The tangents are followed by the tangent. And just who is it that wont debate face to face?

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A Person wrote:There is a greater difference between a Tiger and an Ocelot, a cane toad and a tree frog, an Orangutan and a Bonobo than there is between a Bonobo and a human. So there is no objective or scientific justification for 'kind' which is simply an excuse for avoiding the issue.


So lets see if I understand,.. Your argument is in the measured difference and scope of the differences in animals is greater than that of humans? Therefore variation in a species must be equal?

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YOUR argument is that microevolution within a Biblical 'kind' is acceptable to a Christian (meaning a Creationist)
royaldiadem wrote:Christians do NOT claim that change within "kind" (Genesis 1:25) does not exist. However, asserting that God created "kind"s there is variation among those "Kind"s. Therefore the bacteria is not and does not become a salamander as it is a different KIND.


You have declared an arbitrary division beyond which evolution cannot cross. My point is that you and no creationist have not and cannot define 'kind' in a consistent way because of the theological neccessity of placing man in his own kind. Thus for Man, Kind = species, yet we have observed speciation numerous times so evolution can indeed create new species. Also the Ark could not possibly hold all species extant and extinct so kind must be at some higher level. Despite over sixty years of talking and asserting that only variation within kinds is possible, Creationists cannot show what that level is.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-crs/baraminology.html confidently asserts that
It is believed that the horses (horses, donkeys, and zebras) all are related because they can hybridize, and therefore they belong to a holobaramin. Additionally there is a "dog" holobaramin with monobaraminic branches for the wolves, another for the hyenas, another for the coyotes, for jackals, and more for the hundreds of pet-dog breeds. "Cats" constitute another holobaramin with monobaraminic branches for the lion and the tiger, for the pumas, another for the lynx, domestic cats, etc. (see O’Brien, 1997). A group of all the horses (equids), all the dogs (canids), and all the cats (felids) would be apobaraminic because no horse or dog or cat shares a genetic relationship with any organism which is not a horse, a dog, or a cat.

They even show a nice diagram showing Humans as a separate holobaramin from Chimps and Gorillas who share a holobaramin (i.e. common ancestor). yet Humans are closer to Chimps than Chimps are to Gorillas.
Image

Humans and Bonobos could likely interbreed as their genomes are about as similar as horses and donkeys. Sooner or later a Humanzee embryo will be produced.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the 'kind' or 'holobaramin' concept is entirely arbitrary and that no objective criteria exist to determine the boundaries.

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A Person wrote:You have declared an arbitrary division beyond which evolution cannot cross. My point is that you and no creationist have not and cannot define 'kind' in a consistent way because of the theological neccessity of placing man in his own kind. Thus for Man, Kind = species, yet we have observed speciation numerous times so evolution can indeed create new species. Also the Ark could not possibly hold all species extant and extinct so kind must be at some higher level. Despite over sixty years of talking and asserting that only variation within kinds is possible, Creationists cannot show what that level is.

Your point about the inadequacy of Creationist "kind" definition was clear about two iterations back, AP. The fact that RD hasn't made any effort to address your point should clearly indicate that he has no answer. Repeating the problem for him won't elicit an answer... except for perhaps some Bible verses or veiled threats and name-calling.

The ever-repeated brick wall has been hit, and all that's happening now is the inevitable bounnce-down to stagnation. :?

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SouthernFriedInfidel
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