Man in coma was awake all the time

Man in coma was awake all the time

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Published on November 24th, 2009, 8:39 am
Rift: Sciences

At first glance, the story (reported in several news venues) of the man who was discovered to be awake but completely paralyzed for over 20 years sounds both interesting and disturbing. It brings to mind Terri Schaivo and the whole debate over families making end-of-life decisions after terrible, life-shattering injuries to the brain.

But wait a sec here... this fellow is said to be communicating with the outside world now, using "Facilitated Communication." In other words, someone holds his hand over the keyboard and "helps" his fingers type the keys he wants to press. While his eyes aren't even pointed at the screen or keyboard.

James Randi has done some research on this Facilitated Communication business. According to him, several instances of FC have been studied, and all appear to be cases where the subjects are actually being used as living Ouija Boards.

I know that such stories as this man's in Belgium give hope to many families around the world... but if the hope is unwarranted, I agree with Randi -- it really is a cruel farce.

That video is a real eye opener. The woman doing the 'facilitated communication' is obviously focused on the keyboard - not the patient - who isn't even looking at the keyboard. The keying is far too fast and accurate for a paralyzed man

Damn. Damn Damn, I hate it when people do this kind of thing. This has gone around the world and is already being used as propaganda against diagnosis of brain death. I had heard of it and was surprised but that video was crystal clear.

There are simple tests to dismiss FC. Make the patient and the communicator wear headphones, ask each a different question and see which one gets answered. Send the facilitator out of the room and ask him a question, then bring her back in. Show him a picture she can't see and ask him what it is. When FC IS tested it fails, every time.

I don't feel pity for the poor man -- I expect he's not aware of what's happening. I really feel sorry for the family, being given false hopes, and as you say... angry at the people who are using this case for propaganda.

Looks like some degree of skepticism is starting to creep into the story. No doubt the video they are showing helps. But in the story from this link, they do mention the problems with facilitated communication.

It's sad to think of the crash that is coming for this fellow's family. But the crash will come sooner or later.

There's another video here

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/975121 ... r-23-years

: Rom Houben

Which shows him rapidly tapping away - with his eyes closed, apparently asleep.

What seems really tragic is that it may be true that he has some consciousness - according to this article in Wired

Houben has since proved able to answer yes-or-no questions with slight movements of his foot. It’s a tremendous feat, and raises the chilling possibility that, as estimated by Coma Science Group leader Steven Laureys in a Monday New York Times story, as many as four in 10 people considered utterly comatose may be misdiagnosed. But the legitimacy of interviews given by Houben and his facilitator to Der Spiegel, and shown on video by the BBC, may not be as certain.

Given the videos we've seen, I am taking the 'proven able to answer yes-or-no' with a pound of salt, but if so, then having someone treat you as a muppet and claim to speak for you, making up what they think you should be saying must be really appalling.

I'll be honest.... I told Shan not to even think about pulling my plug if I'm like Shaivo.... unless I'm putting a huge financial strain on the family....

I want every chance to live... and frankly, while this may be a scam, there are way too many doctors willing to pull the plug to clear a bed.

Liv wrote:I'll be honest.... I told Shan not to even think about pulling my plug if I'm like Shaivo.... unless I'm putting a huge financial strain on the family....

In America, being in a coma would probably require a huge financial strain. I"m puting together some thoughts on this. Might post it here, but I'm seriously considering submitting it to the newspaper as a "Counterpoint."

I want every chance to live... and frankly, while this may be a scam, there are way too many doctors willing to pull the plug to clear a bed.

While there's reason to hope for a meaningful recovery, it's always a good idea to carry on. I know of no doctor who would "pull the plug to clear a bed." It makes no sense to consider ending a life simply to change patients. The doctors get paid one way or another.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:While there's reason to hope for a meaningful recovery, it's always a good idea to carry on. I know of no doctor who would "pull the plug to clear a bed." It makes no sense to consider ending a life simply to change patients. The doctors get paid one way or another.

It really was a combination of words to describe a larger picture as a whole.... Doctors do often follow procedures and standard practice and are sometimes wrong. They make decisions based on policy and procedure set by their employers and science as a whole. It works for the most people, but for those few that have woken up after being brain dead, or suddenly became healthy then I'm quite certain there is some argument we do kill people who do have a possibility of recovery when medical science suggest based on the odds "we pull the plug".

I'm not comfortable giving up my one life on the gamble. Even if the odds are against me.

That's understandable. But I'll say that I've seen too much of what life is like as an invalid. I think that spending decades slowly wasting away in a wheelchair, not even able to eat or breathe for myself, let alone handle such everyday events like bathroom breaks or being able to speak to anyone... I'd feel a LOT different about clinging to a life like that. Not only would it feel like the ultimate prison for me, but I'd feel extremely guilty for putting any family that stuck with me through the experience of spending years by my side.

Some things I fear more than others. And really... considering that death will come one day anyway... what quality of life is your limit?

Liv wrote:I'll be honest.... I told Shan not to even think about pulling my plug if I'm like Shaivo.... unless I'm putting a huge financial strain on the family....

I want every chance to live... and frankly, while this may be a scam, there are way too many doctors willing to pull the plug to clear a bed.

That is your right to choose. However, unless Obama's Health Care plan passes--WITH the public option, it is pretty much guaranteed that being in a prolonged coma would bankrupt your family. Basically, Shan would have to divorce you, giving up half of any property you two have in common, and you would have to be put on Medicaid. They would put you in some ratty nursing home where your life would be hell on earth. Fortunately, you would be unaware of the bedsores you developed, the infections, the urnary catheter causing repeated urinary tract infections, for which they would give you antibiotics. The antibiotics would of course, cause you to have diarrhea, which would cause really awful sores around your anus (just like a bad case of diarrhea does now, only 100 times worse because the nurse-aides would clean you up only once or twice a shift. If that.

Hopefully, you would be so comatose you wouldn't even know about this. But if you have any awareness, which you would have if your coma wasn't deep, you would live in constant and severe pain. And of course, you wouldn't be able to tell anybody, so nobody would give you pain medication. All this and with no hope of ever getting out except by dying. Terri Schaivo had money from a malpractice suit, so her husband kept her in an excellent extended care facility. She didn't suffer all that because he had the $10,000 a month to pay for the best of care. Unless your situation is caused by somebody with deep pockets Shannon can successfully sue for the money to pay for your care, your care would quickly bankrupt your family.

Sound like a life you would want extended as long as possible?

fc_turkey.jpg (31.26 KiB) Viewed 925 times **November 26th, 2009, 1:16 pm**

: fc_turkey.jpg (31.26 KiB) Viewed 925 times

Questioner wrote:Sound like a life you would want extended as long as possible?

Isn't a question of misery versus non-existence?

At least in this poetic exterior view, I say give me misery.... when I'm screaming in pain, I could/might change my mind.

Liv wrote:
Questioner wrote:Sound like a life you would want extended as long as possible?

Isn't a question of misery versus non-existence?

At least in this poetic exterior view, I say give me misery.... when I'm screaming in pain, I could/might change my mind.

Oh. You are a person who has never suffered intense, unrelieved pain. It will probably be impossible to explain what real misery is then. You see, those of us who have witnessed that kind of suffering are very clear we don't want it done to us. And definitely anyone who has suffered severe pain will also say they never want to have to live in that condition--with no hope of recovery.

What you don't recognize is that you won't be screaming because you will be unable to vocalize. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean you will be unable to feel the agony. And if you have stated you want to be kept alive as long as possible, then even Shannon won't be able to order you relieved of the endless suffering you have set yourself up for. Let me just say I don't know of ANY doctors or nurses who care for people in that kind of hopeless condition who want to be kept "alive". That should tell you what an awful fate you have set yourself up for.

I'm glad for you that you can't even imagine things being so bad you wouldn't want to live. But it does leave you pretty vulnerable.

I admit, there might be pain beyond my current comprehension.....

So let me ask a question that comes to mind then. What is the purpose of excruciating pain if the organ/tissue clearly has no capability for recovery?

Why should there be a purpose?

If you are asking why excruciating pain has evolved then we can make some hypotheses. One of which is that pain is a powerful motivator and pain perception is undoubtedly good for your survival and subsequent reproductive sucess. i.e. more animals with a strong sense of pain survive to breed than those with a weak sense.

There are mechanisms to dull pain perception when a trauma might otherwise incapacitate you, people in shock and with adrenaline pumping can ignore serious injury and temporarily dampen the pain, enabling them to escape a dangerous situation and go on to breed. After suffering a painful recuperation of course, which no doubt reinforces the desire to avoid that situation again. There's no downside from the gene's perspective, they don't experience pain, it's a mechanism to influence behaviour.

One more indication (in case you needed one) that we are not designed.

Liv wrote:I admit, there might be pain beyond my current comprehension.....

So let me ask a question that comes to mind then. What is the purpose of excruciating pain if the organ/tissue clearly has no capability for recovery?

Just noticed this posting, Liv. So belatedly I can only say: That is a VERY good question. Ever since I took my first anatomy class I have wondered about why we have such terrible bone pain. Or why the abdomen is so filled with pain nerves when deep, penetrating abdominal wounds couldn't have been survivable (except perhaps in very rare instances) without modern surgery. What was the purpose of such intense enervation with pain sensors? One must wonder about the evolutionary value of deep organ pain. Clearly primitive people couldn't do anything about bone cancer or pancreatic cancer or any of those other severe pain sorts of things.

We know that some animals (I'm thinking here of cattle) do NOT share the exquisite pain with abdominal injuries that humans do. They can do C-Sections on cattle with just local anesthesia for the skin. (This is what one of my large animal veterinarians explained to me one day when she was telling me about an emergency C-Section she had just done on a cow with a calf that got badly stuck and couldn't be pulled out). Why would humans need to have such elaborate pain sensors all over and not some other animals? Durned if I know!

The 'miracle' has been shown to be a fraud.

BBCDr Laureys, a neurologist at Liege University Hospital in Belgium, had earlier established that Mr Houben, was more conscious than doctors had previously thought - and that is still thought to be the case.

But he also believed that his interaction with the speech therapist was genuine. Following further study, however, Dr Laureys says the method does not work.

He told the BBC that a series of tests on a group of coma patients, including Mr Houben, had concluded that the method was after all false. The results of the study were presented in London on Friday.

Objects and words were shown to the patients in the absence of the facilitator who was then called back into the room. The patient was then asked to say what they had seen or heard.

"It's easy to watch the video and say this method is not valid, but to prove that it is not true is actually very difficult," Dr Laureys said.

Doubts were expressed about the method by other experts at the time and repeated this week.

"It's like using an Ouija board," Arthur Caplan, a professor of bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, told Associated Press on Friday. "It was too good to be true and we shouldn't have believed it."

"to prove that it is not true is actually very difficult"? I don't think so. The experiment to show it is trivial and obvious.

A Person wrote:There are simple tests to dismiss FC. Make the patient and the communicator wear headphones, ask each a different question and see which one gets answered. Send the facilitator out of the room and ask him a question, then bring her back in. Show him a picture she can't see and ask him what it is. When FC IS tested it fails, every time.

What is tragic is that it took them so long to do the simple experiment - and that they went public with the 'miracle' before doing it.

I heard that report on NPR a little while back. They didn't mention this notion that doing the test was difficult. Well, they really couldn't go there after they described how easy it was to disprove the claim. It's a shame that the media ran with the story originally without doing a few basic and necessary checks that any journalist ought to know to do automatically.

Sadly, this only goes to illustrate just how far the industry has sunk, in its pursuit of constant scoops.