Greensboring.com | Greensboro, NC

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2012-05-08T15:18:38+00:00

noblegray wrote:
How about the bible as translated from the original Hebrew text instead of translations of translations filtered through partially or fully corrupt cowards, those not learned enough provide a translation, and those who were just plain ignorant:

And where does this translation exist?

noblegray wrote:
Leviticus 18:6 "Man, man shall not draw near to any flesh of his body/flesh."

I notice you do not provide a source for this translation. It's not from

New International Version (©1984)
New Living Translation (©2007)
English Standard Version (©2001)
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
American King James Version
American Standard Version
Douay-Rheims Bible
Darby Bible Translation
English Revised Version
Webster's Bible Translation
World English Bible
Young's Literal Translation

Did you make it up?

Anyway, I believe I addressed Leviticus way back at the beginning of this thread

A Person Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:07 pm wrote:
Ah yes it is Leviticus that prohibits incest - along with eating shellfish, and wearing mixed fibres. It doesn't prohibit fathers screwing their daughters though (granddaughters are out). Since dispensation of grace renders Leviticus obsolete we will have to see if Jesus said anything about incest...

You conveniently only mentioned Leviticus 18:6 and omitted the following verses which prescribes in exhausting detail what was meant by the 'flesh of your body' that you must not engage in sex with.

18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
18:10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

You will note that in the detailed prohibitions, sex with your daughter is not forbidden. If verse 6 was intended to be inclusive of all incestuous relationships then verses 7 to 19 are redundant. If verses 7 to 19 are intended to be definitive, then sex with your daughter is not forbidden. Even though sex between a mother and her son is. Lex specialis overrides lex generalis. Was God absent minded when he breathed that passage into Moses' (or whomever the author was) ear?

Using Leviticus as a source of morals is problematic, since very few Christians feel that eating shellfish (Lev 11:12), wearing cloth of mixed fibers (Lev 19:19) or talking to your wife when she's menstruating (Lev 18:19) is an abomination. If the Bible gets this wrong, why should we take any notice of the rest?

Statistics: Posted by A Person — Tue May 08, 2012 3:18 pm

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2012-05-07T21:09:23+00:00

Maybe you can point to ANYWHERE in ANY translation of the Bible where incest between a father and daughter is forbidden
A Person

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
How about the bible as translated from the original Hebrew text instead of translations of translations filtered through partially or fully corrupt cowards, those not learned enough provide a translation, and those who were just plain ignorant:

Leviticus 18:6 "Man, man shall not draw near to any flesh of his body/flesh."

Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon May 07, 2012 9:09 pm

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2011-09-17T04:58:44+00:00

This conversation is amazing. I am glad I stumbled across it. You haven't reverted to calling each other derogative names or insulted each others' intelligence. I can feel the tension between all of you and I am relatively amazed this hasn't come to blows yet.

I dislike religion. I'm putting it out there.

On the subject of Cain and Abel; if this really did happen (which I highly doubt) then it was incest. Cain and Abel were incestuous. Let's look to the definition of incest:

"Engaging in sexual intercourse with another family member."

Now, let me see... I'm sure Cain/Abel fills in that definition.

On the subject of the Bible saying incest is or isn't forbidden - I do believe someone supplied a biblical statement which ended this conversation.

Also - previous Guest, I think I love you.

That is all.

Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:58 am

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2011-03-07T23:24:49+00:00

BecauseHeLives wrote:
Liv wrote:So if God told you your sister's genes weren't "unclean" and told you to procreate with her, you would?

Then God would be lying and God doesn't lie. The only "clean" person ever on the earth was Jesus.

On what grounds are you judging that statement to be untrue?

Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:24 pm

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2009-04-12T23:18:36+00:00

BecauseHeLives wrote:
Taken from APErson's favorite website....

http://www.gotquestions.org/close-relat ... nship.html

Question: "Is it wrong to have a relationship with a close relative?"

Answer: The relationships that God forbade in the Old Testament Law are listed in Leviticus chapter 18, verses 6-18......
So there is nothing essentially evil about marrying a close relative. The reason we should not do it is that it is unsafe genetically......

I agree with most of your answer, BHL, but given that Leviticus does say that the forbidden relationships are an abomination, I would disagree with your statement that there is nothing essentially evil about incest. In fact, Leviticus forbids many relationships beyond parent/child/sibling/grandchild/uncle/aunt relationships--and calls these relationships "wickedness". It also forbids the kind of relationships that are likely to engender blood feuds such as adultry with a neighbor or a brother or sister-in-law, or a son or daughter-in-law. Certainly we know these relationships forbidden because of their likelihood to produce hatreds and killing feuds within the tribe (this greatly increasing the chance that the tribe would fail--and this is the essence of evil because it would inevitably lead to violating the command to go forth and multiply). But the Jews also recognized from observation (of other cultures such as Egypt that had incest) that inbreeding leads not only to genetic anomolies, but to a very high rate of miscarriages and weak infants who are very likely to die in infancy. Additionally, we also know that the children born of incestuous relationships may be fine in the first generation (eg a brother/sister or parent/child or first cousin mating), but the second and third generations in which incest is continued leads to a very poor breeding success rate and high rates of both genetic anomolies and mental illness among the progeny. By the way, this can also be seen today in animal populations.

The inbreeding among dogs and other animals in breeding operations that are trying to breed perfect animals has led to purebred dogs (and other animals) with extremely unreliable tempraments, to low breeding success rates, and to high rates of both infertility and miscarriage. Yet these same animals that can't seem to breed successfully when bred to a close relative seem to have very high success rates of breeding when a non-related mate is used. In any case, whether you believe that the Jews knew of the evils of inbreeding from God (as we Christians do), or because we do know the Jews were excellent observers and very smart about health effects of human behavior), clearly these kinds of incest were viewed as evil in their nature.

Statistics: Posted by Questioner — Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:18 pm

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2009-04-12T02:30:33+00:00

The next day, God had to spell it out to me. Yeah, that's right. God spoke to me.

I assume literally? Or is this one of those metaphorical "I had an epiphany" things? It's hard to judge the value of your evidence without further details. I would say your proof is unacceptable as evidence in the court of law...

Statistics: Posted by Liv — Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2009-04-12T02:14:33+00:00

YourAnswer wrote:
So think then; how is anyone a guy's daughter? By blood and/or marriage. Either way, the guy who is the father will have had to had sex with the daughter's mom... do you follow? So if a guy sleeps with his daughter as either kind of dad, they would be having sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter, just as Lev 18:17 forbids.

Make sense??

Yes. Congratulations.

YourAnswer wrote:
So then how is it, that you failed to see the simple answer, staring you square in the face the entire time? How is it that it zoomed right over your heads each and every time? Perhaps... it's because, some of you are not nearly as smart as you all would like to think?

Perhaps... it's because some of us just didn't notice, like you. Unlike you, God didn't deign to materialize and spell it out. That includes a professional Pastor and the resident fundamentalist. .

YourAnswer wrote:
Are we so wise and have it all figured out? Especially if we stop so easily in our "questioning" what we see and what we are told?

Who stopped questioning? What was lacking was meaningful answers.

YourAnswer wrote:
Apparently many of you think that just because someone is unable to answer a question that it proves what they believe in is false.

Not neccessarily, just that they are unable to justify their beliefs. It does weaken their position though.

Statistics: Posted by A Person — Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:14 am

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2009-04-12T00:20:57+00:00

A Person wrote:
A Person wrote:Maybe you can point to ANYWHERE in ANY translation of the Bible where incest between a father and daughter is forbidden

I take it that's a 'No' then?

Sanjuro wrote:
BecauseHeLives wrote:
perhaps you should read my posts....

I did, but I didn't see a direct reference, only vague assertions that some obscure verse says you should follow a countries rules in which you live- and this is the best bit -you can ignore it if you think they are against gods law. The only problem is, everything is so subjective that perhaps raping daughters IS part of god's law. Don't believe me? Well it doesn't say NOT to do it, so it MUST be true!

I've know where it says it. But first, let me say...

Apparently many of you think that just because someone is unable to answer a question that it proves what they believe in is false. On that same note, many of you seem to believe that simply because something raises questions, or doesn't make sense initially, that that is proof enough of it being untrue.

Hmmm. Perhaps you could be... wrong? How much do you really know? I mean, truthfully. You have limited perception and incredibly limited knowledge. Yet, many of you like to behave like otherwise.

Leviticus 18:17 begins with, "Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter." Then goes on to say the same about her grandkid, no matter if from her son or daughter.

So think then; how is anyone a guy's daughter? By blood and/or marriage. Either way, the guy who is the father will have had to had sex with the daughter's mom... do you follow? So if a guy sleeps with his daughter as either kind of dad, they would be having sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter, just as Lev 18:17 forbids.

Make sense??

So then how is it, that you failed to see the simple answer, staring you square in the face the entire time? How is it that it zoomed right over your heads each and every time? Perhaps... it's because, some of you are not nearly as smart as you all would like to think?

As for the other subjects of debate, there are answers. But I'm not here to do your thinking for you. Just stop playing naive with yourselves and admit that you prefer certain explanations and stop there simply because it pleases your current "got it all figured out" mindset. ...which apparently amounts to squat cause you can't even comprehend what you've just read.

As for me, I didn't see it. Did NOT see it. The next day, God had to spell it out to me. Yeah, that's right. God spoke to me. If you need to laugh go ahead. Yeah, that's right. I'm the "fool" even though none of you "wise" guys could see what was right in front of your faces.

Of course I didn't see it either. But that's the point. Are we so wise and have it all figured out? Especially if we stop so easily in our "questioning" what we see and what we are told?

Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:20 am

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2008-09-25T11:37:03+00:00

A Person wrote:
royaldiadem wrote:You are wrong.

Deep, that's very deep. How can anyone argue with that. You can tell you do this for a living.

Apparently, there are some people who think that he know deep, secret stuff...

Statistics: Posted by SouthernFriedInfidel — Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:37 am

Re: Cain & Abel's Incest.

2008-09-24T19:41:26+00:00

royaldiadem wrote:
You are wrong.

Deep, that's very deep. How can anyone argue with that. You can tell you do this for a living.

Statistics: Posted by A Person — Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:41 pm